Come join in the BASHING with conservative cartoonists, two time Pulitzer winner Michael Ramirez, anonymous but award winning CagleCartoonist Rivers, and the brilliant Gary McCoy as they bash Biden with much more passion than they bash Trump! With your liberal editorial cartoonist host, Daryl Cagle.

Be sure to subscribe at! And see all of the political cartoons every day on!

Here's my new cartoon about what the presidential race is looking like now.


Michael talks about a few of his wettest cartoons in this episode, here are my favorites:

This is a good one!  Watch it!


[00:00:00]Daryl CagleHi, I'm Daryl Cagle, and this is the CagleCast where we're all about political cartoons. Today we're going to talk about Trump and, Joe Biden, we have, three great conservative cartoonists, Michael Ramirez, Rivers, and Gary McCoy I wanted to start off with one of my own cartoons. This is how I see the presidential race right now. Trump's got a lot of baggage, but that's not keeping him from running out in front of Biden. I chose not to put, labels on all these bags. I first thought about putting, the names of the lawsuits and things on the bags, but, sissy cartoonists use labels, so I, I avoided that.

[00:00:36]Daryl CagleUh, this is how it's looking. And there's a caricature of Biden that has been growing with constant reinforcement from the conservatives. that is, just not the way that I think Biden is or that I see Biden. He's, he's depicted as, demented as a puppet of powers on the left. Probably Obama. he's, seen as a crime figure who's on the take and taking bribes.

[00:01:01]Daryl CagleAnd, to me, it just sounds like absolute nonsense. but that's where the conservative cartoonists live in their bubble, in their silo. And, we will explore some of that tonight conservatives tend to not draw Trump very often. They just like to draw Biden. Whereas also, you know, you can say that the liberal cartoonists like to draw Trump and don't draw a whole lot of Biden. But I don't think that's quite as true. Um, here are a few examples of cartoons from my buddy Dick Wright, who is a great old time cartoonist who's worked for just a gazillion newspapers, won a gazillion awards.

[00:01:38]Daryl CagleAnd, he just, captures this different Biden from this different world. So I'm gonna talk to the conservative cartoonists about that and, see if we can figure out what the heck is going on with this, alternative reality, Earth 2 that they live in. I hope you enjoy this, this is a, extra good podcast, and I'd like to start off introducing Gary McCoy, our brilliant conservative cartoonist who's won a ton of awards, including ten silver Rubens from the National Cartoonist Society. Gary draws two comic strips, The Duplex and The Flying McCoy Brothers, and Rivers, our anonymous brilliant masked conservative cartoonist, and Michael Ramirez, who's a good old buddy of mine and he's won two Pulitzer Prizes and he's syndicated to hundreds of newspapers by another syndicate, and he draws for the Las Vegas Review Journal.

[00:02:22]Daryl CagleWe're going to get going on Michael Ramirez first. This is a great podcast. We've got all kinds of alternative reality going on So enjoy it.

[00:02:29]Daryl CagleAnd here is Michael talking about his cartoons. Here you've got the wrong stuff from another movie cartoon with Biden walking away from his crashed plane. Excellent cartoon.

[00:02:42]Michael RamirezAnd that, that's a direct quote from the president himself.

[00:02:45]Daryl CagleHe says, there is no federal solution to COVID. Here you've got a Bloody Hands cartoon with Biden and Saudi Arabia. You know, we have, we have an issue.

[00:02:55]Daryl CagleUm, I track what editors print. Put blood in a cartoon and it just doesn't get printed. I think that's a frustration for a lot of, uh, cartoonists.

[00:03:03]Michael Ramirezsay, as a capitalist pig, that's okay. Like, I'm not doing these cartoons to be famous or to be rich. I'm doing them because there are issues that need to be dealt with, and the American public has to be reminded of what's at stake.

[00:03:16]Daryl CagleSo here you've got the White House with a big sign saying Free Stuff atop the 32 trillion dollar national debt. debt mountain. And the White House is saying, how could they downgrade our credit rating? Well, they're downgrading it because it's about to tip over off the top of the mountain. And, uh, it's an excellent metaphor.

[00:03:35]Daryl CagleIt looks good.

[00:03:36]Michael RamirezIt is inconceivable how much money we owe. It is. I just can't even believe it. When you think of the budget. You know, prior to Biden, it increased 2 trillion. Remember, it was, you know, a decade ago when we were just reaching the trillion dollar mark on budgets to begin with. And now you get a budget that's almost 6 trillion, or a little bit more than 6 trillion.

[00:03:57]Daryl CagleAnd this is a cartoon that works for every administration in the White House. I

[00:04:03]Michael Ramirezmean, look, another Trump thing, when Obama was president, one of the things I focused on was spending. Of course, I focus on that for every administration. But his largest deficit when he was president was 1. 3 trillion. Donald Trump's deficit before COVID was 1.

[00:04:20]Michael Ramirez3 trillion. It just has to stop. The spending is ridiculous.

[00:04:24]Daryl CagleSo here you've got, uh, Air Force One dragging a welcome banner and they say, I don't know what is behind the surge of immigration. Of course, that is the welcome and, uh, couldn't be more clear. Good cartoon. So here we have the rodeo with the Biden tied to the bucking bull's abdomen with a big knot that he can't untie.

[00:04:44]Daryl CagleAnd there's no way he's going to get out of inflation. And this is an excellent cartoon, Michael. Thanks.

[00:04:49]Michael RamirezIt's just about the bull the president is unleashing on the American public on inflation.

[00:04:53]Daryl CagleWell, he is certainly responsible for all the junk that goes on while he's president, whether he did it or not.

[00:05:00]Daryl CagleSo I, I don't, I don't care where the blame falls. I'll blame him as well.

[00:05:05]Michael RamirezI blame you, Daryl.

[00:05:06]Daryl CagleWell, thank you, Michael. This is a funny one. You've got the big wind power windmill on the green and woke jet plane, which is unlikely to run very well with that power source. We're losing our focus.

[00:05:18]Daryl CagleIt's kind of ironic that we went from propeller planes to jet airplanes, and now we're kind of de evolving.

[00:05:24]RiversThe problem with a cartoon like that is that you're going to give people


[00:05:30]Daryl CagleOkay, here you've got the helicopter flying over Kabul and it says, what did we leave behind? Our credibility as they're flying away from the building, taking the last people to escape out. They did lose their credibility and that was quite a mess that Biden has responsibility for.

[00:05:47]Daryl CagleI, I agree.

[00:05:48]RiversGosh, I love that cartoon. I love the way that I know we're not supposed to be critiquing work here, and I'm not really critiquing, but I'm just

[00:05:56]Daryl CagleNo, you're welcome to critique. I We don't have rules here. I just come back and edit out everything that's inappropriate.

[00:06:03]Michael RamirezSo go ahead.

[00:06:04]RiversI just love the way you did the background with almost like a watercolor effect.

[00:06:10]RiversIt's not You don't do that a lot, but in this case it's very effective and very beautiful. I love that.

[00:06:15]Michael RamirezAnd, you know, the underlying context of this, because I've been to Bagram, you know, I went on these USO tours, and Bagram, when you, when you look at it, it's fairly isolated. It was a, um, airport with two runways.

[00:06:26]Michael RamirezThe strategic value of that place, when you think you've got a, a nuclear China, a nuclear Russia, a nuclear Pakistan, soon to be nuclear Iran, the strategic value of having a base there, which the Pentagon said they could have easily defended with 2, 500 troops, the strategic value is enormous. That China is, uh, is shelling out trillions of dollars to try to set up these kinds of strategic bases all around.

[00:06:49]Michael RamirezUh, I think it was a, once again, reflective of bad policy decisions by Biden. Actually, Trump started it in December, but the Biden administration, the one who followed through, setting up an artificial deadline that made no sense. And just a catastrophe that showed weakness to the world. I think we're suffering the consequences of it.

[00:07:08]Michael RamirezStill today.

[00:07:09]Daryl CagleMichael mentions the USO tour. The editorial cartoonists and other cartoonists have been going on a lot of USO tours over the years. And it's a very nice thing to do. I did one with Michael in Bahrain. And, uh, a wonderful experience. And, great to meet with all the troops and do drawing for them.

[00:07:29]Michael RamirezI went to Afghanistan and Iraq. During the war. And, uh, you know, I felt more in danger when I walked through the newsroom at the L. A. Times than I did.

[00:07:40]Daryl CagleOkay, so here you've got, Biden. He says age means nothing as he's backed by a giant President Kamala sign. I think one thing that, liberals and conservatives can have in common is not liking Kamala.

[00:07:52]Michael RamirezI think that's most of the nation. I think that's that's sure the shared sentiment of that. And I think it's something that she brought on herself, frankly.

[00:08:01]Daryl CagleWell, for different reasons, I think. So, here you've got, uh, Kitchen Conversation, and the guy doing the crossword puzzle says What's a five letter word with an I in it for virus destroying our economy?

[00:08:13]Daryl CagleAnd the lady says Biden. That's cute. A name calling cartoon. I like name calling cartoons.

[00:08:19]Michael RamirezI can't believe you just called the cartoon cute.

[00:08:21]Daryl CagleOh, come on. This is cute, Michael. Oh, she does have a lot of knives behind her. Those are very threatening looking knives.

[00:08:28]Michael RamirezThat's like a knife in the heart for a political cartoonist.

[00:08:30]Michael RamirezThat's so cute.

[00:08:31]Daryl CagleOh, cute? Yeah. What about Steve Sack?

[00:08:33]Michael RamirezWell, Steve is kind of cute. I wouldn't date him, but

[00:08:37]Daryl CagleOkay, so here you've got a huge wave of migrant surge, and it is just a beautifully drawn wave. And, uh, at the Border Patrol lifeguard station, they're saying, President Biden sent us to help with the paperwork.

[00:08:49]Daryl CagleThe paperwork is not going to stop that wave, and that is a great looking cartoon. There's a tradition among editorial cartoonists for drawing giant waves. Excellent giant wave here. Thank you. When we don't say much about a cartoon, that cartoon gets edited out. Anything to say for this cartoon?

[00:09:05]RiversI was just gonna, let's see, I was gonna just comment again on the, on the drawing, but I noticed it's almost like a little bit of a Japanese influence in the wave there.

[00:09:13]Michael RamirezYou know what, as a surfer, it's what I used to look at every morning. But the underlying theme, though, is important. This giant wave of immigrants coming into the country. And, you know, I think what makes America extraordinary is the fact that we've taken all these cultures and mixed them together and made it uniquely American.

[00:09:31]Michael RamirezBut there's a, we have to make a delineation between legal and illegal immigration. My grandfather came from Agua Caliente, Mexico. My grandmother is from Spain. He was a legal immigrant. My mother was a legal immigrant. from Japan. More than just securing our borders as an immigration crisis, it's also a national security issue.

[00:09:51]Michael RamirezThere are many people that want to do America harm. We're seeing that today. Allowing people in without knowing who they are and why they're here is dangerous for America. And when you have these nations that have surrogate surrogates of evil, and they're using fissionable material. What's going to happen when a dirty bomb goes off in an American city where it's uninhabitable for 75 years?

[00:10:11]Michael RamirezThese are issues of national security.

[00:10:13]Daryl CagleAnd we've got Biden building a wall now. So I didn't get this one, Michael. You've got Biden holding a 400, 000 missile, chasing down a little girl.

[00:10:22]Michael RamirezYeah. I had so many variations. And this is when they were shooting down the Chinese balloon.

[00:10:26]Daryl CagleOh, and she's got a balloon and he's going after any balloon.

[00:10:30]Michael RamirezWith a missile that costs almost a million bucks each.

[00:10:33]Daryl CagleOh, I just, I didn't have any context. Yeah, you'd think they could use a pin.

[00:10:38]Michael RamirezYou know, I had my, my, the cartoon that I like better, but we were focusing on Biden, so I had to throw in a Biden cartoon, was that I had Secretary Austin sitting there with a Chinese balloon floating over his head, and he's saying, um, and there's a jet about to approach it, and he's saying, we couldn't shoot it down over, until it got over vacant space.

[00:10:56]Michael RamirezThe pilot's going, how about now?

[00:10:58]Daryl CagleYou've got the NASCAR crashing and breaking up into little parts and inside the NASCAR the Democrat donkey says funny it doesn't feel like we're on the right path and you know this is just a drawing that is so much fun that it's the drawing that makes the cartoon and it's just lovely

[00:11:17]Michael Ramirezyou know and it's one of those things Readers can relate to when Biden says we're on the right path, but you feel like the wheels are coming off the government.

[00:11:24]Michael RamirezIt's the perfect Illustration of that idea.

[00:11:28]Daryl CagleOh, there's Biden in there. He's the prez. Okay. I'm sorry. He's a guy driving And here you have a great graphic cartoon with all the issues behind Biden and he calls Republicans Extremists and makes the point and

[00:11:42]Michael Ramirezyou know, they like to call conservatives and Republicans extremists But when you look at the extreme extreme agenda of this administration, these progressive groups.

[00:11:50]Michael RamirezI give speeches around the country to all kinds of groups. There's far more things that unite us than divide us. And the issues that people don't like, they don't like this wokeism. They don't want to defund the police. All these extreme things that the fringe on the left is doing and advocating that is not representative.

[00:12:08]Michael Ramirezof the country as a whole. Well, we

[00:12:10]Daryl Cagledon't have a lot of moderation among the people on the left or the right.

[00:12:13]Michael RamirezI think, I think there is more moderation. The problem is, people rely on social media to sort of calibrate what people support and they don't. And it's just an echo chamber of nonsense to the most extreme fringe of the political spectrum.

[00:12:27]Michael RamirezAnd we should be looking at more of these things. And I always tell people, look, this conservative revolution is already underway. They've been waiting for the last 12 years to get a Reagan conservative because nobody wants these things that these extreme fringe parties are offering. They want to get back to the fundamentals that made America great.

[00:12:48]Daryl CagleThey want that, but we don't seem to have a system that facilitates those people getting elected.

[00:12:52]Michael RamirezWell, that's a, you know, that's a result of gerrymandering and both parties insulating their representatives from accountability.

[00:12:59]Gary McCoyCan I jump in? Oh, sure. Okay. This is a great cartoon. It's like Mike said, everything being kind of so extreme now and so divisive and the, the extremes on each end of the spectrum are, are like so much more amplified than they have ever been.

[00:13:16]Gary McCoyWhy do you think that editors don't want the controversial? content. I mean, probably couldn't answer really for them, but to me, seems like they would want something that kind of represents. I mean, not the extreme right or left viewpoint, but I mean, there's nothing right now in this country that is, you know, vanilla.

[00:13:35]Gary McCoyEverything is Extreme on both sides. So I'm just wondering why do you think the editors at the papers and other places?

[00:13:42]Daryl CagleWell, I'll take a shot at that people dislike cartoons They disagree with much more than they like cartoons They agree with and so if you want to be risk averse you don't give them anything to disagree with

[00:13:53]Michael Ramirezbut let me qualify that I'm not sure that's true.

[00:13:56]Michael RamirezI think you hear from people that have disagreement with cartoons, much more than you hear from people that want to praise your cartoons. True. Because of the nature of politics.

[00:14:04]Daryl CagleRight. Well, one, one person calling the paper to cancel their subscription has an effect now that it didn't have in years past.

[00:14:11]Gary McCoyYeah. I think that's it.

[00:14:12]Michael RamirezIt's a unfortunate byproduct of the tenuous nature of journalism today.

[00:14:17]Daryl CagleAnyway, this is lovely red ink, Michael. Thank you. And Air Force One, Roger, it looks like Biden is running again as they install the stairlift on the stairs up to the Air Force One. He is, uh,

[00:14:28]Michael RamirezYou know what? I make fun of Biden's age all the time.

[00:14:31]Michael RamirezBut frankly, he's sort of had this case of dementia since he got into politics. This is nothing new. He's been misreading things. He's been on the wrong side of every major issue through his entire political career.

[00:14:44]Daryl CagleI think this is one of those, uh, right and left bubble things because in my left bubble, uh, I don't see him as having dementia.

[00:14:51]Daryl CagleI flip on Fox News and I hear about how he has all these mental impairments and, um,

[00:14:57]Michael RamirezWell, that's my point. I think that's a bubble issue. I'm not saying that he's that he has dementia, although there are many things that he's doing that's that makes me wonder. Now having having a senior parent and watching them go through the process where they're just completely fine until the last few years of the life where it suddenly just changes very dramatically.

[00:15:16]Michael RamirezThat definitely has to be an issue in the upcoming election. And now I'm, I'm, I'm opposed to term limits. I'm opposed to age limits. I think we already have those like in Federalist 50, I think it was Federalist 4. We're having more frequent elections. Is the cure for that, so that people are informed and they can make these decisions and then limit their terms.

[00:15:37]Michael RamirezBut you know, the

[00:15:38]Daryl Caglepoint You quote Federalist papers like I quote Star Trek episodes.

[00:15:43]Michael RamirezYour quotes are a lot more informative than mine, obviously.

[00:15:46]Daryl CagleOkay, here you've got Biden crashing his student loan forgiveness car into the Constitution. How is that crashing into the Constitution? I mean, I get that we should be responsible for our own choices to go into debt.

[00:15:59]Daryl CagleI paid for college for both of my kids and the idea that if I hadn't done that it could be forgiven would make me feel like I'm kind of a fool for doing that and encourage bad behavior in the future. But how is that a constitutional issue?

[00:16:12]Michael RamirezSee, this is where you need to read less Star Trek and more Federalist paper.

[00:16:16]Michael RamirezIt's a constitutional issue because the power of the purse is within the second branch of our government, which is the Congress. Congress is the one who gets to allocate spending, not the president. The president cannot, by decree, just absolve people from their debt. And frankly, I

[00:16:33]Daryl Caglethink this is when the.

[00:16:36]Daryl CagleCourt found that he didn't have the power to do that, and yet this was a response to the court knocking his plan down.

[00:16:41]Michael RamirezBecause it's within the purview of the Congress. If they want to do that, then let them face the electorate once they've done that. And all the people that actually paid back their student loans, all those people that didn't have any student loans, can respond and form.

[00:16:56]Daryl CagleI take your point. And this is illegal immigration about to form one of those big waves, like you just drew on the other cartoon. President Biden says, take it down, referring to the title 42 dam. Very good. I kind

[00:17:07]Michael Ramirezof, I kind of did that because, uh, obviously I work for the Review Journal in Las Vegas. So I thought the Hoover dam would be a good metaphor for it.

[00:17:16]Michael RamirezBut it really, when you think about the tides of people, this thing is holding back the sheer volume of people. The reason why we designed our immigration system the way it was and not for economics. But, uh, you know, escape tyranny. We have a legal immigration process that allows these people to apply in coming to the country.

[00:17:34]Michael RamirezBut if you reward bad behavior, all it does is it stimulates more bad behavior.

[00:17:40]Daryl CagleLet me compliment the Review Journal because we love the Review Journal. They subscribe to Cagle Cartoons and, they're one of just a handful of papers that have a full time editorial cartoonist left now. And, it says a lot for them.

[00:17:53]Daryl CagleYou know it. They last till the end like this.

[00:17:55]Michael RamirezIt's a great newspaper, too. We're one of the few newspapers that's actually adding content and adding stuff.

[00:18:00]Daryl CagleI've got to say, too, when you pick it up on the newsstand, it feels like it's got some substance rather than some of these other things that have like three or four pages.

[00:18:08]Michael RamirezIn fact, comparing it to the L. A. Times where I was before, there's no, it's

[00:18:11]Daryl CagleBoy, the L. A. Times has really gotten thin. So, Michael, here you've got Biden talking to the U. N. and he says I like the marble on this cartoon, and he says America is ever then better. Uh, that's another, uh, dementia cartoon, I think.

[00:18:27]RiversIt sounds

[00:18:27]Riverslike me on my

[00:18:28]Michael Ramirezgood days.

[00:18:30]Daryl CaglesO here you got the editorial department tap tap tapping on their computer typing in, uh, The far right driven GOP wants to impeach Biden even though there's never been any sign of wrongdoing to point to.

[00:18:40]Daryl CagleAnd Biden holds his for sale sign up in front of him. None whatsoever. Yeah, this is another bubble cartoon because I don't s See what is so obvious to all of you. Of course, there's Sleazy Hunter, but, uh, there's no money trail.

[00:18:55]RiversWell, as again, you know, I disagree with you. I think that there's definitely some, there's, there seems to be, The gun is smoking.

[00:19:00]RiversThe question is, can we tie it to, uh, Joe? And so far, the GOP has been somewhat Um, slow on that.

[00:19:07]Daryl CagleBecause it must be there. Okay, so here you've got, uh, Super Joe, who's almost a Batman, and he says, our superhero noticed a subtle change to the signal from the Democrat party, which is not a bat signal, but rather a step down signal.

[00:19:21]Daryl CagleAnd if he were to step down, he would fall off the top of that building.

[00:19:24]RiversRight, that, that was, that was drawn right after, uh, I think there was a poll release that said that 64 percent of Democrats, uh, wanted Biden to step down or not run in 2024. So

[00:19:36]Daryl Caglehere Biden is taking a phone call where someone says, uh, "Hello, is this Pedo, Pete - snicker?"

[00:19:42]Daryl CagleAnd Biden says, "How many times have I told you that my name to you is Dad, Hunter?" So why is he motivated to say Pedo, Pete? Is that Biden is like a pedophile for touching people, including young people.

[00:19:55]RiversWell, that's interesting 'cause I, I'm kind of blown away that you don't know the story that. Hunter Biden, uh, alluded to his dad as being Pedo Pete,

[00:20:03]Daryl CagleYeah, I, I, I don't know. That's, that's a bubble story, I guess. Why is he Pedo Pete?

[00:20:09]RiversWell, that was his name. That was his pet name for him, Pedo Pete. So, um, I'm kind of surprised that this story didn't make it into your bubble.

[00:20:16]Daryl CagleHere you got Biden chopping down a big tree. He says, I cannot tell a lie, Putin did it.

[00:20:21]Daryl CagleSo, is this part of your, not supporting Ukraine in the respect that he's blaming things on Putin?

[00:20:28]RiversWell, I would, yeah, I would suggest that a lot of what, um, Biden does is, is blame anything on anyone else but himself, right? So And

[00:20:37]Daryl CaglePutin is just somebody who So if it's not Trump, it's Putin. Okay. And here you've got Biden Uncle Sam walking away from a nuclear explosion.

[00:20:46]Daryl CagleHe says, Because provoking a third world war with nuclear powers is way better than mean tweets. I didn't quite, quite get this either. So is this support for Ukraine is creating the risk of a nuclear war? And that's better than Trump's mean tweets? I'm not quite getting it.

[00:21:04]Michael RamirezWell, that seems Pretty straightforward, actually.

[00:21:08]Michael RamirezYeah, that's The comparison that he's making is he's saying that, uh, and I'm not saying I, I agree with the political context of the cartoon, but it was pretty straightforward. He's saying mean tweets don't compare to getting us into a third world war. It's a very straightforward cartoon image. Um, I don't, I don't agree with the sentiment because I'm, I'm a Ukraine supporter, but I think the cartoon is actually Pretty good.

[00:21:28]RiversSo there's the alternative universe theory, Daryl, in which, you know, if Donald Trump had won in 2020, would we be where we are right now in terms of inflation, in terms of the economy, in terms of war with Ukraine or war with Russia, in terms of what just happened with Hamas? You know, you can speculate, but there's a lot of people.

[00:21:49]RiversAnd I think that I'm kind of one of them that believes that Trump would have handled it differently. And we probably wouldn't be in the situation we are today.

[00:21:57]Daryl CagleAnd here. Presuming that the way he would have handled it differently would have been a safer world rather than a more dangerous world.

[00:22:03]RiversWell, I think, I think Putin respected Trump.

[00:22:06]RiversUh, he may not have liked him, but I think that there was a crazy aspect to Trump, similar to, there was this crazy aspect to Reagan, if you will, in that our enemies didn't know what he was going to do. And this is, this was true for Trump. They did not know how crazy is this guy. And so if Trump would, were to say to Putin, Hey, if you do this, there will be.

[00:22:26]Riversrepercussions beyond your capability of, of, you know, understanding, then I think, I think Putin would have perhaps reconsidered, but Putin sensed weakness. And definitely that that weakness was put forward during the, the Afghanistan withdrawal. There was definitely our enemies took note of that. And, and So surely Putin did.

[00:22:47]RiversSo the question is, would Putin have invaded Ukraine? Would Hamas and Iran feel so emboldened as they do today to confront the US if not for Biden being in office? Certainly, like I said, I think I'm a little bit with Michael, um, but. But I think I'm probably even to the more extreme right than Michael in the sense that I actually don't mind Trump.

[00:23:10]RiversI don't love him, but at the same time, I see him a far greater force for good than the guy who's currently there. And I would also argue some of the things. Um, some of the consequences of Trump being in office, that being many, um, judges being placed in office that are more right wing, that has had a huge effect, including in the Supreme Court, where we have for the first time, the Roe versus Wade controversy kind of put to rest.

[00:23:38]RiversSo, or not to rest, obviously, but

[00:23:40]Riversyou know what I mean.

[00:23:41]Daryl CagleIgnited


[00:23:42]Riversignited. But but definitely there were consequences to Trump being in office that a lot of right wingers like myself would agree to that. We kind of like, um, like him or not. Okay,

[00:23:52]Michael Ramirezwell, I have to say, let me just say one thing about that. While you might disagree with the point that Rivers is making in that cartoon.

[00:23:59]Michael RamirezI think the cartoon is very clear and very powerful, and the pronouncement that, that, uh, the danger from a Biden administration is far larger than, you know, Trump's not, again, I, I, I support Ukraine, and I disagree, but the cartoon, I think, does what it does. Political cartoons ought to do, and I think it does it powerfully.

[00:24:19]Daryl CagleOkay, so here you've got the two prisoners, and they're in their cell. One says, So there I was about to testify against Joe Biden as a whistleblower, and the next thing I know, I'm sitting here. So these guys are suffering from the weaponization of law enforcement.

[00:24:34]RiversRight. So I do believe that there is one specific whistleblower and I forget his name, but he was being indicted for something at the same time as he was being a whistleblower.

[00:24:44]RiversSo again, you know, the timing, you know, he should have been protected as a whistleblower, but it seems that the DOJ had other ideas.

[00:24:53]Daryl CagleThis is interesting. You've got Uncle Sam digging through, uh, at the edge of the cliff about to fall down from the cliff, and Biden says, Keep digging. You'll eventually hit pay dirt, and then it's nothing but blue skies after that.

[00:25:06]RiversSo it's a bit of a gag. Yeah, it's a bit of a gag. You know, it's, it's the, you know, U. S. 's kind of, Digging its way into deeper and deeper issues and troubles, uh, and, uh, yeah, we're not going the right way.

[00:25:18]Daryl CagleSo, Gary, we are up to you. Yay. I know we're pushing up against your deadline.

[00:25:23]Gary McCoyYeah, so, uh, especially since I don't like my drawing, and, uh, I'm not the draftsman that Rivers and Mike are, so what I, what I do is I try to make up.

[00:25:33]Gary McCoyFor that, by being a better citizen and, uh,

[00:25:40]Daryl Cagleyou're, you're a better citizen.

[00:25:42]Gary McCoyA model partner to my community. Okay. So anyway, I hate this drawing, but let's go through it, sir.

[00:25:49]Daryl CagleSo you've got Biden at the desk and two secret service guys are getting bit by his, his. Dog that famously bites and he says, sir, nevermind the border. We'd like to request that a wall be built around Commander.

[00:26:03]Gary McCoyJust a gag cartoon. Of course. That's just, that's kind of my, my thing. And plus I try to keep in mind what you say, Daryl, about the editors. And

[00:26:11]Daryl CagleI don't want to be in the position of telling you to not have opinions. I mean, cartoonists should have opinions and we should be twisting the arms of editors to print opinions.

[00:26:20]Gary McCoyI do. I know. And you know, I wish I could, you know, Mike and Rivers hit the topic so hard, and I do in some of these cartoons perhaps, but, you know, when, when you can cross reference two topical things going on at the same time, it's, it's probably an easy go to for cartoonists.

[00:26:36]Michael RamirezAnd you know what? I think, I think that, uh, I think that cartoon hilariously brings up the context of the border wall and another event that's happening in the news at the same time.

[00:26:46]Michael RamirezSo he's saying that Biden has done nothing with the border wall. Could he at least build a border around, Commander. I think, you know, one thing I loved about Ronald Reagan was his sense of humor. And humor is a very, very, very powerful weapon to reach a much larger audience with your weapon, with your, with your, uh, with your message.

[00:27:05]Michael RamirezAnd I think one thing I love about Gary's cartoons, and I don't see them a lot, Gary, but when I do, they always make me laugh out loud, is that we want to be the catalyst for thought. We want to bring certain issues that I think very, very important issues to our society. To the viewer's attention. And, uh, you know, Gary does it very well with his with his sense of humor.

[00:27:28]Michael RamirezAnd I actually like your drawings, Gary. I think they're

[00:27:31]Michael Ramirezwonderfully creative

[00:27:33]Daryl CagleI like your drawings too, Gary. So you've got Biden with his feet glued to the floor and, uh, his advisor is saying, sir, it's what environmental protesters do, but gluing your feet to the floor, isn't the best way to hold on to office.

[00:27:46]Gary McCoyObviously I'm just like, again, cross referencing things that were topical.

[00:27:50]Gary McCoyAnd, uh, I think this is, was around the time when the, uh, the Burning Man thing was going on out in the desert and all those people were blocking people wanting to get through. And, uh, so people just got so, so fed up, they just started dragging them off the road. And it's kind of what I would imagine me doing also.

[00:28:08]Michael RamirezFrankly, it may be the only way that Biden holds on to office.

[00:28:11]Daryl CagleYeah. Well, he's holding on to other things here. And, uh, she says, hands off my, uh, expletive. And, uh, the Secret Service guys say he's not just a gun grabber.

[00:28:23]Gary McCoyYeah. Sometimes I wish I wasn't. Joe Biden.

[00:28:25]Daryl CagleBecause you can get away with grabbing?

[00:28:27]Gary McCoyHeh.

[00:28:28]Gary McCoyAlthough, you know, my wife probably wouldn't be too thrilled about it, but, yeah.

[00:28:31]Daryl CagleOkay, you've got the military before Biden. The drill sergeant says, drop and give me 20! And after, drop and give me the name of a Disney princess or a preferred pronoun. All right. Uh, here you've got Biden talking to the kid who's thinking Ku Klux Klan hood, and, uh, Biden says, Don't worry, if you can't get into Harvard because of the Supreme Court ruling against affirmative action, I'll give you a job holding a lantern in my front yard.

[00:28:59]Daryl CagleSo, is that funny just because you're calling him a bigot?

[00:29:02]Gary McCoyUh, to me, it's not so much funny as It's just pointing out Biden's, you know, veil.

[00:29:08]Daryl CagleHe has had some gaffes that got him into some trouble.

[00:29:11]Gary McCoyYeah. And you had told me subsequent to this cartoon, Daryl, about how Klans, you know, Klansmen hoods, you know, won't make it into, the paper.

[00:29:20]Gary McCoySo this one probably never ran, I guess.

[00:29:22]Daryl CagleWell, there's always somebody to print anything, but Klan hoods are like, swastikas. Editors don't like them and the cartoons just don't get picked up.

[00:29:30]Gary McCoyYeah. And Biden just had another recent gaffe. I forget who it was. I don't know if it might have been lj, lcoolj, jl.

[00:29:38]Gary McCoyBut, uh, then they said, you know, this boy, the guy's like 50 something years old. One of his, you know, reoccurring kind of racial faux pas that, that doesn't really get much, uh, much media attention.

[00:29:50]Michael RamirezSo Daryl, do you have like a, do you release a list of metaphors that your cartoonists shouldn't use? Like on a monthly basis?

[00:29:58]Daryl CagleI don't want to tell the cartoonists what they should or shouldn't. But I do tell them what gets printed and doesn't get printed. I send the cartoonists pretty much weekly, uh, all the cartoons, the top 10 cartoons that were reprinted that week that editors chose. And the top 10 cartoons from us tend to be equal in the amount of papers that print them to all the rest of the cartoons, like another hundred cartoons.

[00:30:21]Michael RamirezI guess my, my next question would be, do you guys listen to what Daryl says? No, you don't have to answer that.

[00:30:28]Daryl CagleOh, I can, I can tell you. I don't get much, too much people listening to that, but I'm

[00:30:35]Gary McCoysorry, what were you saying? Well, I, I know, I, I've changed, I mean since you've sent those emails out, Daryl. I, I have changed somewhat in what I submit because, you know, I don't want to submit a ton of stuff that's never going to get picked up.

[00:30:47]Gary McCoySo, and, and

[00:30:48]Daryl Caglethere is a part of being an effective cartoonist is getting people to see your cartoons. Absolutely. And, uh, if you can, if you can make a compromise, like saying, well, I don't really need blood in this cartoon. It does the same thing without blood and then get it printed by twice as many places.

[00:31:04]Daryl CagleThat's not a

[00:31:04]Daryl Caglebad compromise to make

[00:31:06]Michael RamirezI do agree with that. I mean, I don't do controversial cartoons for the sake of controversy, just like I don't do humorous cartoons just for the sake of humor. And there are certain subjects that you just don't want to do because the controversy surrounding the placement within the cartoon will overshadow the point you're trying to make.

[00:31:25]Michael RamirezBecause obviously we're trying to make a point.

[00:31:27]Daryl CagleOne problem that we have is anti semitic cartoons, particularly from around the world, and I've tried to lay down some rules for the international cartoonists to follow to make their cartoons not anti semitic, and I do kill the anti semitic cartoons. Um, there are some basic rules that I think are helpful, just as you wouldn't draw sexually explicit things in an editorial cartoon and expect it to be printed, likewise

[00:31:54]Daryl Caglesome of these things. that are natural go to kind of things that pop into artists minds, like drawing Israelis as Nazis persecuting the Palestinians in Gaza, Auschwitz. Uh, we don't accept that, and we need to explain to the cartoonists that Uh, and, you know, there's a range of those things, from slight to, uh, heavy.

[00:32:16]Daryl CagleAnd cartoonists should know that some things cross the line, and some things are inappropriate, and some things we'll tolerate, but they simply mean your cartoon's not gonna get printed, and that's another way of being an ineffective cartoonist.

[00:32:29]Michael RamirezYou know, I'm a big believer in freedom of speech, that people can say and do anything.

[00:32:34]Michael RamirezIt does not give you the freedom. To be insulated from the consequences of what you do. Yes. I'm sure that, uh, that Gary and Rivers are like me. We think about our audience and how, how the, uh, the cartoon is going to be read out there by our readership. And, uh, you know, I don't want to offend anybody. Just to make a point.

[00:32:55]Michael RamirezThe point is the most important thing. I mean, I always think of political cartoons like a Super Bowl ad. You've got five seconds to catch their attention, five seconds to make the pitch. But instead of selling a product or selling ideas, if you offend their sensibilities with something that really doesn't have much to do with the content of your point, then you lose the opportunity to make the sale.

[00:33:16]Gary McCoyThat's a good point.

[00:33:17]Daryl CagleAnd, uh, you can judge how much you want to offend. I recall, uh, one of your cartoons when you were on our site, you drew a dead fetus in an electric chair. And we got more angry mail for that than I think any cartoon we've ever had on People were just outraged. But, you know, we, we ran it and I'm not sure that you would have been disappointed with the outrage.

[00:33:39]Michael RamirezWell, I don't, I don't recall that cartoon. I've been picketed by everybody. Sometimes at the same time, I managed to offend everybody at some time, but you know, it's sort of like why I would never use Muhammad in a cartoon because the controversy that's surrounding the image would overshadow any point that I'm making.

[00:33:57]Michael RamirezSo I have a tendency to try to sidestep this, but I'm not afraid to like the fist bump cartoon, like the cartoon that I just did on Hamas with the bloody teddy bear. Sometimes you have to, to get right up to the edge of the limit to make a powerful point. I think that's worth it.

[00:34:13]Daryl CagleWell, if you're going to draw something that's going to be very offensive to a minority of readers, I think it's worth thinking about what's the value of being offensive.

[00:34:22]Daryl CagleAnd can I say this in another way?

[00:34:24]Michael RamirezRight. And, and let me, let me. say that I'm not trying to be offensive. Maybe shocking to some people, but, uh, you know, politics is an emotional thing. You know, when people write me hate mail and stuff, I like it. They're like the medals that you get in a battle. But you're not doing it to offend people.

[00:34:41]Michael RamirezYou're trying to convince them. And, you know, I'm not drawing offensive cartoons. I'm drawing powerful cartoons sometimes.

[00:34:47]Daryl CagleWell, sometimes there are cartoons that are drawn to be offensive to show that they can do it.

[00:34:52]Michael RamirezYeah, I would discourage that.

[00:34:54]Daryl CagleSo here you have Biden and he's standing behind Biden's record, which looks like a big, Bigfoot.

[00:35:00]Daryl CagleAnd he says, the wind is at my back. And this is a fart coming from this Bigfoot, which lists some of Biden's problems. So, explain this cartoon to me, Gary.

[00:35:09]Gary McCoyIt's kind of just, you know, self explanatory. You know, I just basically am playing off the phrase. The wind is at my back and figured I'd work into one of my favorite flatulence, um, topics.

[00:35:22]Gary McCoySo I just ran with it. I've been doing a lot of fart cartoons in the Duplex and the Flying McCoys too, for some reason, I don't know.

[00:35:28]Michael RamirezI think, I think he's saying that Biden's record stinks.

[00:35:31]Gary McCoyOh yeah, I mean, exactly. Yeah.

[00:35:34]Daryl CagleI don't think I've actually tracked, uh, the performance of farts in cartoons, but, uh, perhaps I should.

[00:35:40]Michael RamirezBut you're talking about old farts, right? So are you talking about Biden? Are you talking about Biden? Oh,

[00:35:44]Daryl Cagleso here we are with the old fart Biden, and he's got a big corruption shadow looming behind him. And another, uh, bubble cartoon, because you certainly don't see this on the left.

[00:35:55]Gary McCoyWell, the big guy obviously is referencing the emails that Hunter Biden referred to as dad as the big guy.

[00:36:02]Gary McCoySo just, it's basically the essence of

[00:36:05]Daryl Caglethe cartoon. That's another bubble thing. Cause I didn't get that reference. Oh, okay.

[00:36:09]Gary McCoyWow.

[00:36:09]Michael RamirezBut you vehemently disagree at the point of view. So

[00:36:13]Daryl CagleI mean, everybody should get what's coming to them. If I see a paper trail, uh, money going to dad, then, uh,

[00:36:20]Gary McCoyThat's just the thing, they hid the paper trail so well through a bunch of these LLCs and like 20 different, you know, shell companies and his daughter in law getting millions of dollars and his grandkids being in some of these.

[00:36:34]Gary McCoyIt just strains credibility. You just have to look at it with any logical perspective.

[00:36:40]Daryl CagleWell, I've just not seen a money trail or any kind of evidence that points to Dad in the same way that you see it.

[00:36:47]Gary McCoyIn a way, I actually, this is going to probably be the only nice thing I've ever said about Joe Biden. He obviously loves his kid, and I think anybody who had a son or daughter, a child struggling with addiction, you know, and if any kind of decent parent would Would love their child and support them. But the thing where I separate is they would try to help that child.

[00:37:09]Gary McCoyThey wouldn't allow that child to further go down the spiral of self destruction. They wouldn't enable that child. And these are all things that I've seen Joe Biden do with Hunter. You know, he's just, if you had Joe Biden's means. And stature if I had a son that had an addiction and a sex addiction and was trafficking, you know, women possibly across the country for sexual pleasure, you know, instead of sending the FBI to, you know, to cover for him on a gun crime, I, I'd send the FBI to get him in a headlock Walk him into a rehab facility and stand guard at the door and not let him come out until he was, you know, clean as the driven snow.

[00:37:50]Gary McCoyI wouldn't allow him to continue to screw up his life. And that's, that's where I, you know, love is one thing, but enabling someone who's such a, a train wreck as Joe Biden has done with his son to me is just the opposite of being a good parent. That's, that's being a terrible parent, in my book.

[00:38:06]Daryl CagleWell, it's tough when those sleazy jerk kids grow up into being an adult and you don't have that kind of control over them and they just take advantage of whatever opportunities are there for them.

[00:38:16]Gary McCoyThen you don't let them ride on Air Force One, you take away their, their, you know, what'd Hunter say, you know, I'm, you know, I'm sick of Dad taking half of what I make like he's done with everybody in the family or something like that. I don't know.

[00:38:30]Daryl CagleSo here's Joe's inflation reduction cafe, and they're wheeling the body of the U. S. economy out of the cafe, who I assume just died from the eating in the cafe. Joe says, Thank you. Please come again. Not a cafe that you want to eat in.

[00:38:46]Gary McCoyNo, I just thought Joe saying that. to the, as the guy's being wheeled off to the morgue would be funny.

[00:38:52]Gary McCoySo,

[00:38:53]Daryl Caglewell, I guess that is funny. And, here you have Joe driving his, fuel truck of political hate speech that's flammable. And, he says, I don't understand. I gave it everything I got as he leaves the national division burning behind him. And is this another bubble thing? Because I don't hear the political hate speech from the left.

[00:39:12]Daryl CagleLike I hear it from the right.

[00:39:14]Gary McCoyIt's coming from Joe Biden himself, his famous. You know, speech with the Marines flanking him with the red backdrop lights. And well, he just basically everything he does when he gets, he gets a chance. He's all, you know, he refers to Donald Trump as, you know, that other guy.

[00:39:29]Gary McCoyAnd, you know, my predecessor, there's the lack of respect that comes from this administration towards the previous one is like unrivaled from anything I've ever seen in politics.

[00:39:38]Daryl CagleUnrivaled. I mean, it seems a lot tamer than what we see on the right. You

[00:39:42]Michael Ramirezpretty much see it pretty much pronounced on both sides of the aisle.

[00:39:45]Daryl CagleWhy Joe Biden is called the big guy. He does big stumbles and big mumbles and big lies. I've never discussed with my son his foreign business dealings. I, I get that's where you're coming from. And I guess this'll be the last one. You have Joe and the Democrat donkey pledging allegiance to a flag that looks like a rainbow LGTBQ flag,

[00:40:08]Gary McCoyI think that represents like the, all, all the different. Identities, you

[00:40:13]Gary McCoyknow.

[00:40:13]Gary McCoyI just want to say I had a great time.

[00:40:15]Gary McCoyIt's fascinating listening to these guys talk and kind of analyze stuff.

[00:40:20]Daryl CagleYou guys were all very civilized, and we didn't have much argument.

[00:40:27]Gary McCoyWe'll bring another liberal on sometime, Daryl.

[00:40:31]RiversI was just gonna say, I'm a big fan of both these guys, and so there's a lot of respect there. And I really appreciate Michael coming on.

[00:40:39]RiversToday, because of course he's outside of the Cagle group, but, uh, just an awesome cartoonist and it's been great to hear from you today and you're very articulate. And of course, Gary and I are friends from way back and it's always good to see my friend, Gary.

[00:40:54]Gary McCoyAnd same with Mike, Mike and I go way back and yeah, it's a mutual love thing here.

[00:40:58]Michael RamirezThe McCoy brothers are almost part of my extended family. It seems like. I look forward to seeing you without a mask at some point.

[00:41:07]Michael RamirezI've come from a place in the political spectrum. I'm probably to the right of both you, although I'm a guy who will go after everything. You can vehemently disagree with the politics behind a cartoon and still love the cartoon or the cartoonist. You know, I, I don't like to, uh, I don't like to tear down other people's work, but I'd like to say that politics is a personal thing and everybody, uh, should be emotional, emotional about, about how they feel.

[00:41:34]Michael RamirezAnd, and, uh, just because I don't agree with what's behind the cartoon, um, it doesn't mean that. The cartoon is not comprehensible or not a powerful vehicle to make a point of view. And, you know, I, I like, uh, both these guys are fabulous cartoonists, and, uh, I'm honored to be on this.

[00:41:51]Daryl CagleHey, I love all three of you, and I really appreciate your coming on

[00:41:56]Gary McCoylove all you guys, and see y'all soon. Okay,

[00:41:58]Daryl Caglevery good. Well, let me say that everyone should remember to subscribe to the Caglecast wherever you're watching or listening today. Please subscribe. Our Caglecast is available in both video and audio versions. So if you don't see the cartoons, go to Cagle.Com or Apple Podcasts or YouTube or Spotify. to see the video podcast rather than just the sound. And I kind of like Podcruncher. That's my favorite one, but we're on all the platforms and thank you for being here. And Michael, I'm delighted that you came today. Sounds good. Thanks a lot. We'll talk soon.