Wagner vs Putin – Russia Cartoons, A.I. and so Much More! #20

Today’s political cartoon podcast follow the Wagner Army rebellion and mercenary, gangster, murderer Yevgeny Prigozhin, along with equally bad Vladimir Putin as editorial cartoonists cut to the bone of the short lived rebellion. We’re continuing from our previous Putin episodes and adding a bunch of insider talk on many professional political cartooning topics –this episode is fun, don’t miss it. We also have lots of pretty birds and we discuss more about the threats of Artificial Intelligence.

Today's political cartoon podcast follow the Wagner Army rebellion and mercenary, gangster, murderer Yevgeny Prigozhin, along with equally bad Vladimir Putin as editorial cartoonists cut to the bone of the short lived rebellion.

We're continuing from our previous Putin episodes and adding a bunch of insider talk on many professional political cartooning topics --this episode is fun, don't miss it. We also have lots of pretty birds and we discuss more about the threats of Artificial Intelligence. Daryl Cagle chats with:

TAYLOR JONES is a brilliant caricaturist! Taylor draws for the Hoover Digest at Stanford University, he was the staff cartoonist for many years for the El Nuevo Dis Newspaper in Puerto Rico and he drew for many years for US News and World Report magazine. And he's won a ton of awards.

From Holland we have the brilliant cartoonist, JOS COLLIGNON who studied International law and worked as a journalist until he decided to become an editorial cartoonist. Since 1982 his cartoons are published in the DUTCH de VOLKSKRANY. Jos has won tons of awards including the Grand Prix at European Press Cartoon in Brussels.

Joep Bertrams is also from Holland, he draws for the Amsterdam-based daily newspaper E Huna Amshalaga in Amsterdam which has nothing to do with the Green party and a bunch of other Dutch papers.

ADAM ZYGLIS draws for the Buffalo News in New York. Adam has won the Pulitzer Prize and a ton of other prizes.

Here's the transcript!

[00:00:00] Daryl Cagle: Hi everybody, I'm Daryl Cagle, and this is the CagleCast where we're all about political cartoons. Well, last week we did an episode about Vladimir Putin, Vladimir Putin, part two. And, we had a lot of fun doing it, and we went long and we got actually a whole extra episode out of it, and that's what we're gonna do today.

 Poor Taylor Jones. Got a little shorted on that episode. Go. I'm gonna start with a bunch of Taylor's cartoons, and a few of the new Wagner versus. Putin cartoons that came in after that because, we did that just before the Wagner Rebellion so I thought I would throw in some of the newest Wagner cartoons.

So we get caught up on Putin. And then, the rest of the episode we're gonna hear, uh, more freewheeling conversation, which of course goes to artificial intelligence because, uh you know, that's what's on all the cartoonist minds. Taylor Jones is great fun and, uh, this is Taylor's Yevgeny Prigozhin cartoon where he looks like a raccoon.

And I think this is just hilarious. this is one that I did, you know, the, Russian flag that has this two-headed eagle on it, I think is pretty crazy. I like this two-headed eagle. And of course now that there, is all of this obvious infighting, that two-headed eagle makes a whole lot more sense. This is one that I did with Prigozhan and, Belarus President. Alexander Lukashenko and Lukashenko says, Hey Prigozhin, you and your Wagner army are welcome to stay in Belarus so long as you keep wearing that t-shirt, that target t-shirt. Here's one by Patrick Chappatte, our Swiss cartoonist with no words. And, Putin, who looks a little bit like Johnny Carson here is, holding. His puppet strings over Prigozhin who is not cooperating well and, and Putin's getting all tangled up. And here's one from John Darkow that really did very well with the editors, Putin in his Z tank with his, uh, backfiring, tank, having some trouble on him. And, uh, he says it's getting so you can't commit an act of aggression and not have it the backfire.

This is one from our Ukrainian cartoonist Vladimir Kazanevsky with, balloons over the Kremlin, uh, Prigozhin and Putin about to poke each other with needles. Heres, Rick McKee from Florida drawing, a Putin, who's not looking like much of a strong man

and another backfiring tank by Rivers. Here is our cartoonist from Slovakia, Martin Sutovec, and Prigozhin and Putin fighting it out in the blood. we're gonna Go to the extra conversation that happened on our last episode. And we, just get to be more freewheeling and chat. Maybe that's what this podcast should be going forward. Just a lot more freewheeling chat.

So I'm gonna think about that, see if I can do a little less structure and have a little more fun. Uh, wow, they're all fun. So, hey, thank you for coming. And here's our episode that, ran long and was actually better than the part that.

Didn't run long, so, uh, enjoy and I will see you next week. We'll probably do the Supreme Court because that's so, disturbing. We'll see what's disturbing next week. Thanks.

[00:03:11] Daryl Cagle: So Taylor here you've got, Putin, much like, president Bush reading the book to the, kids, as 9/11 happened here. You've got Putin with Goodnight Freedom, good Night Ukraine, reading a book to the school kids in Russia. That's a, that's a lovely drawing and a lovely metaphor.

[00:03:30] Taylor Jones: Well, thank you. This was for, the Hoover Institution, they are probably, I mean, um, best known for their Hoover archive, where they're very, very, it's a, it's, it's, I guess, the world's biggest archive outside of Russia for, uh, all kinds of Soviet, uh, memorabilia, uh, writings.

[00:03:50] Taylor Jones: Uh, things from dissidents, all that stuff. They've got all that at the Hoover Institution. And, and, and of course part one of the Hoover Fellows, I guess he's, I'm not sure if he's still alive or very, very old. Uh, one of, uh, a, a famous American historian of Russia. Uh, and this was foreign, an article either by him or about him.

[00:04:09] Taylor Jones: Um, and, uh, the thing is that, um, if, if you go back to that cartoon for a second, Daryl, um, uh, I, you know, that could be taken as almost, it's certainly not meant to be pro Putin. But of course what he's doing is, part of the story was saying how, uh, uh, Russia is trying to, um, is, is very strongly indoctrinated, indoctrinating its young children about the, the, the glorious adventure that is the, uh, the, um, well, they don't call it a war, what do they call it in Ukraine?

[00:04:43] Taylor Jones: Um, that the Russians, uh, uh, and, and, um, But you know, somebody could look at this and take it the wrong way, I would think, you know, and think that, um, this is almost in, in favor of Russia and, uh, obviously

[00:04:57] Jos Collignon: No, no, no. I can't. I can't.

[00:04:59] Taylor Jones: Okay, good.

[00:05:00] Adam Zyglis: Tell, tell Taylor, was this a reference to Goodnight Gorilla as a parent of young children, that's the only thing I, that's, I thought Goodnight.

[00:05:06] Adam Zyglis: Move right away. That classic book. Yeah. Good. It was like Good Night, good Night, moon. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's a

[00:05:12] Adam Zyglis: great book.

[00:05:12] Jos Collignon: Thank you. Well, I mean, but Good Night Ukraine with an explosion under it that makes you not really very enthusiastic for Putin.

[00:05:21] Daryl Cagle: So here's a wonderful cartoon with a Teenagery sullen Putin in his room with, the keep out signs on the door and this is, this just has how so much character and it's so much fun.

[00:05:35] Daryl Cagle: You've got Boris and Natasha from Bullwinkle on a poster on the wall. It's hilarious.

[00:05:40] Taylor Jones: Well, you know, uh, uh, of course that's the, that's back in Putin's more svelte days. Uh, so he had, he was kind of raw bone then and, uh, uh, but thank you. Um, uh, you know, he's, he, he has, Putin has lent himself in so many ways in terms of caricature not to, to, to all of us.

[00:06:01] Taylor Jones: And, uh, you know, it's, um, uh, he's always fun to draw. Uh, I think he's gotten harder to caricature because he's, um, because he's kind of puffed out. Uh, it's a different look. And, and there are some cartoonists that, that really handle that really well. Such as Ed Wexler, he's really got the, uh, the puffy Putin down, uh, flat.

[00:06:22] Taylor Jones: Yeah. Perfectly

[00:06:23] Daryl Cagle: That's a wonderful cartoon. I enjoyed that. I like the ones that have so much character. And here you're drawing that crazy church guy and the Pussy Riot, people being crucified. And, uh, you know, any crucifixion, this cartoon's not gonna get printed, but, uh, it's wonderful cartoon.

[00:06:40] Taylor Jones: This is for, this is for the port, the newspaper in Puerto Rico, and down there, you had, what I had to be careful of was things that might seem critical of the Catholic Church, but otherwise, you know, whether it's fundamentalists, Protestants or Russian Orthodox, they were quite, uh, and frankly, you could be, um, well you could, you could be a little, um, you could be a little edgier regarding Israel that, uh, in, in Nuevo di as well.

[00:07:06] Taylor Jones: Yes, this is got religion and blood, Daryl, so I guess no, no go. And crucifix.

[00:07:10] Daryl Cagle: Oh, you've got blood in there too. Oh, no. Double whammy here.

[00:07:15] Taylor Jones: I, I mean, uh, by the way, that was done, that was done in the first round of sanctions against, uh, Putin regarding Ukraine back in, what, 2014. But it turns out what all, all the problems, you know, it still works today because, Despite all the problems Russia's having and how they're doing so poorly in the war, apparently, from what I've read, the sanctions aren't having much of a dent, and in fact, there was a story the New York Times today where both Boeing and Airbus in Europe, Europe despite sanctions, are supplying all kinds of parts and what have you to their commercial airline industry.

[00:07:50] Taylor Jones: Sanctions generally don't seem to work for the mo no matter who you, uh, you know, they, they haven't brought Iran to its heels. It, it, they, it seems like a, in some ways a terrible waste of time. It's more done for, it makes it look like we're doing something when, uh, uh, perhaps we could be doing something more effectively.

[00:08:06] Daryl Cagle: I think giving the sanctions enough teeth for them to be effective is just so difficult and unpleasant that yeah, they don't do that

[00:08:14] Taylor Jones: right to make 'em really work. Then they hurt us as well.

[00:08:17] Daryl Cagle: Here's another lovely cartoon from you, Taylor. You've got, uh, Putin the Snake and he's, uh, devouring and swallowing Ukraine, and he thinks takes a while, but I always finish my supper.

[00:08:29] Taylor Jones: Well, I've had, I've had, uh, I've, I've portrayed Putin as I think, eight or nine different animals and he just lends himself to that. Uh, I know that, I forget whether it was, I think it was Yoju who had, uh, uh, you had um, uh, uh, Putin as the wolf in a China shop and he just sort of lends himself to, uh, to that kind of exaggeration

[00:08:53] Daryl Cagle: He does Wonderful car.

[00:08:54] Daryl Cagle: Yeah, he is beautiful. Yeah, really. Here's another wonderful one. You've got, uh, leopard Putin, and he's coming up on all of the, the critters. What, what, what are those critters?

[00:09:08] Taylor Jones: Well, you got gnus wildebeasts or gnus.

[00:09:10] Daryl Cagle: Those are wildebeest and gnus. Same thing thing, labeled thing. The Baltics Donetsk Ukraine, Belarus, Moldova.

[00:09:18] Daryl Cagle: And the storybook says the leopard closely evaluates the herd of gnus, seeking to identify the weakest animal, one with an injury or perhaps a young calf. The leopard then tries to separate this gnu from the rest of the herd so it can go in for a quick kill. That's a lovely cartoon.

[00:09:37] Taylor Jones: Well, thank, yeah, I've, uh, um, uh, I watch a lot of nature programs.

[00:09:45] Joep Bertrams: I can see that the way you do the leopard with it's

[00:09:50] Joep Bertrams: shiny on, on his back and well, appreciate that.

[00:09:53] Taylor Jones: It was fun. It was fun to do.

[00:09:54] Daryl Cagle: Yeah. Oh, it's great fun. This cartoon.

[00:09:57] Taylor Jones: Uh, but, um, uh, I, I, I've, you know, I've, this is a third podcast. I've been, Darryl's been nice enough to invite me in and, uh, uh, this was a, I think a, an especially fun one. I think I

[00:10:13] Jos Collignon: informed, he asked me before, but, but I didn't, dare, dare so now he asked me for the second time.

[00:10:20] Jos Collignon: I said, let's give it a try.

[00:10:23] Daryl Cagle: Very good. Uh, there are

[00:10:25] Jos Collignon: less enough to keep me going.

[00:10:28] Daryl Cagle: There are less, less topics I can use the international guys for. Uh, cuz you don't draw as many cartoons about the other topics we've been doing. But, um, I would like to get you guys both on more and, uh, we'll do more maybe, we'll, maybe we will do those Middle East ones.

[00:10:45] Jos Collignon: I'll try to hear my, okay. I try to hear more from the, the, the circumstances you American cartoonists working in compared to what I am used in Europe, but it didn't get off the ground and, and, and maybe it's, it's something to talk about later. I mean, those were great things to talk about when we were in France with everybody and, uh, on the train and, and being there.

[00:11:12] Jos Collignon: And we had, we had really nice discussions about it.

[00:11:16] Taylor Jones: Well, I, I can't remember whether it was Jos or you, uh, mentioning that you talked about meeting with, uh, I guess it was you Jos talking about, uh, yeah. Uh, dinner with your, uh, editors and the breakfast cartoonists. But were these all, were these all cartoonists for one paper or are these bunch of cartoons Yeah.

[00:11:35] Jos Collignon: Yeah. Every paper in Holland has one or two or Wow. Sometimes three cartoonists. And that's, that's, they take pride in having these guys. That's wonderful. And they also take pride in letting these guys draw what they want to draw, because that makes the voice personal. Yeah. And as you read columns, you like a columnist who has his personal voice and his personal, uh, uh, uh, personal well, things to say and, and, uh, and that's what they it is my experience, you know, I mean, uh, you has different experiences, but I work for this paper for 40 years now, and, uh, they have a tradition.

[00:12:17] Jos Collignon: My predecessor worked for 50 years at this paper, and sometimes we really have discussions with the chief editor and, well, not really, but, but sometimes it looks like a fight. And then I know he can, he can check me whenever he wants to, but, Usually it goes in the open and, also in the paper is written about it.

[00:12:40] Jos Collignon: Mm-hmm. So I get the support of many readers and they write letters and, and those letters are published mm-hmm. Also in the paper. So it's more like a big community. And that's is also the strength of the paper. Well, you know, and, uh,

[00:12:57] Jos Collignon: I think also

[00:12:58] Joep Bertrams: in Europe, cartoonists are much more appreciated, uh, and, and much more honored as well than in, in the United States.

[00:13:08] Taylor Jones: That's true. You know, when I, I think, think so during, during the years, I, I, I did, I was never an employee of the newspaper in Puerto Rico, but I, I, uh, uh, did work for them on a freelance basis a lot, uh, for 30 years, including the time for about 10 years where I was doing three cartoons a week for them.

[00:13:28] Taylor Jones: But they already, they, they, all, that time, they already had a cartoonist and they would use other cartoons, uh, uh, just other cartoonist work as well. Now, I don't mean syndicated stuff, just who they, someone would come in, uh, oh, yeah. We use this cartoon, I think in Latin America too. of course, Latin American newspapers are having the same problems that American newspapers are.

[00:13:46] Taylor Jones: And in fact, I was canned for that reason. because they just didn't have the funding anymore. But, um, um, mm-hmm. They, and, and you know, the thing is something that isn't done in the us uh, for the most part was that they, they have, they would've cartoons throughout the newspaper. They would, you know, the, uh, uh, cartoons and caricatures, not just confined.

[00:14:05] Taylor Jones: And of course, often on the on the front page. Now, I guess in New York, the, um, New York Observer who did that, but that's just not, that's not been an American thing since, since, oh my goodness. You would, you would know the car, the cartoonist long gone from the Des Moines Register. Uh, whose cartoons appeared on the fir on the front page, or, or did his successor?

[00:14:25] Taylor Jones: Daryl? Um, I can't, I can't. Brian. Brian Duffy. Duffy is, this is still appearing on the front page cuz that, that was the tradition in the Des Moines Register in Iowa. But, um, uh, that's something that, you know, generally editorial cartoons have been confined to the editorial page and then syndicated work Yeah.

[00:14:43] Taylor Jones: To the op-ed page. But in Latin America, there's a lot more. There's, there's, and is that true? Is that true in Holland and elsewhere in Europe too, where you might see it all, you know, cartoons all over the, the, the newspaper?

[00:14:55] Jos Collignon: No, no, no. It's not, not that. No, it's not that cover. Not everywhere in the paper.

[00:15:00] Jos Collignon: It's, it's usually confined to the oped page. Okay. But I, I, I did three a week and my colleague did also three a week. So we did it together and, uh, we had our own voice and, and, uh, and um, uh, well, Most of the papers, most, most of the national papers anyway in the Netherlands have this situation. And most of them are very careful with their, with their cartoonists and, and, uh, and they are really appreciated.

[00:15:34] Jos Collignon: And also by the readers because they, they tell us we are part of the face of our papers. That's what they literally tell us. So they want, don't want to lose us. And, and our, and well, maybe we draw a bit along the lines of the paper. I, I think it is. That's why we work there for so long, but they leave us.

[00:15:57] Jos Collignon: And also if there's discussion about a cartoon, Who cares. It's an opinion page. It's an oped page. So there is supposed to be discussion.

[00:16:06] Joep Bertrams: Let me tell a little experience I had,

[00:16:09] Joep Bertrams: uh, in this respect. Cause I was,

[00:16:11] Daryl Cagle: Joep, while, while you tell us your experience, I'm gonna bring back one of your cartoons that got skipped by accident.

[00:16:19] Daryl Cagle: And, uh, this is a wonderful cartoon. Oh, really? Would, would they put the, the price cap on, Putin's oil? Um, and I guess this is kind of an optimistic cartoon thinking that price cap would make more of a difference than it seems to have made. But I just thought this cartoon was great Keep the lid firmly closed. That's fun. Uh, that's fine. Yeah. Yeah. But I, so you were saying

[00:16:43] Joep Bertrams: yes cause the experience, uh, because I was sacked.

[00:16:47] Joep Bertrams: some time ago by, Het Parool by the, the editor. And, uh, they had to take, she had to take me back because the, the, the, the reader responded, didn't want it this way, and they wanted me back in, in the paper.

[00:17:02] Joep Bertrams: But I left. In the end, I, I left because that's no way of working together. But I still, uh, worked there for a year and then I could, uh, look for another job. And I found from E Huna Amshalaga,

[00:17:16] Joep Bertrams: for instance,

[00:17:18] Joep Bertrams: , and also in, in

[00:17:22] Joep Bertrams: several times, it occurs that a cartoon is used on the front page when there's a special, uh, issue or a special, uh, occasion, because there are no photos.

[00:17:35] Joep Bertrams: Uh, and then they can use, they did. So it is possible to get on the front page,

[00:17:41] Jos Collignon: but

[00:17:41] Jos Collignon: Daryl,

[00:17:42] Jos Collignon: It's hard at the moment for you and for American cartoonists because a lot of the cartoonists, uh, are being sacked and have no possibilities anymore to go anywhere. And that's because of the, the, uh, the, the, uh, different opinions in America that's gone too wide out of each other.

[00:18:00] Daryl Cagle: Well, we had, uh, the experience last year of the biggest. American newspaper chain Gannett, uh, deciding to drop editorial cartoons entirely in what was then about 400 papers out of about, uh, 1200, 1300 daily papers overall in America. So it was a very large percentage of the papers and it hit our syndicate very hard.

[00:18:24] Daryl Cagle: A lot of, uh, great papers that have been subscribing to us for 20 years just suddenly stopped printing editorial cartoons entirely. Oh. Um, because Gannett wanted to get away from having the left versus right stuff, the donkeys and the elephants. Yeah. They didn't want the friction between the left and the right, which is what they said was the reason they did this.

[00:18:46] Daryl Cagle: Of course, yeah. And they wanted the papers to have more of a local focus that didn't lend itself to left and right. And that's very frustrating. Uh, some of the Gannett papers stayed with us, uh, Gannett papers in California and Florida, which is wonderful, and we love those papers. And, uh, they're very committed to editorial cartoons.

[00:19:06] Daryl Cagle: But, you know, the hundreds of Gannett papers left and that's, uh, a great frustration for us. And we're seeing that in other papers for more, for other reasons than Gannett. Um, a lot of papers are consolidating and you find that, There'll be one paper in a little regional group that is the editorial staff of maybe two people for maybe six papers in this the area.

[00:19:33] Daryl Cagle: And those other six papers may have little or no staff, maybe one reporter or two reporters, and the papers put together in another place. Uh, that's very, very frustrating. Uh, there are some papers that are like ghost papers that exist with no employees, um, and they're entirely put together by another paper in the region.

[00:19:54] Daryl Cagle: Um,

[00:19:55] Taylor Jones: wow. I guess AI will be taken care of that before, before too. Wrong. You know, the ai, you know, imagine, I was thinking the other day if a, um,

[00:20:05] Daryl Cagle: we had our second, AI cartoon. Yes. That was submitted to us by, Jos. Uh, I could dig that up if you wanna see it. Yeah, I'd love, let, let me get that. Um, I, you know, I should say, I, I was thinking of, of doing a little extra, you know, like on the Bill Maher show, they've got this extra cuz they sit and talk some more.

[00:20:25] Daryl Cagle: And I think I'll do that with this one. Well, we'll do something extra.

[00:20:29] Jos Collignon: That would be nice.

[00:20:30] Daryl Cagle: Okay, so, uh, here is Jos's, AI cartoon. I think this is hilarious, and I have no idea what, what you've written about in here.

[00:20:39] Jos Collignon: Um, no, no.

[00:20:40] Jos Collignon: I'll

[00:20:40] Jos Collignon: tell, I'll

[00:20:41] Jos Collignon: tell you.

[00:20:41] Daryl Cagle: Well, let, well, let me say that this is Okay. We, we had one AI cartoon that we syndicated, and I'd love to syndicate this one too. I, I think it's hilarious depending on what you wrote in it. And, sometime there's gonna be somebody who can't draw, who isn't a cartoonist, but who's a good writer and can get the AI to do stuff that goes with good writing.

[00:21:02] Daryl Cagle: And then we're gonna have a tough decision to make, which is, do we wanna do that? Uh, until now, that has never happened. Um, but, but it could,

[00:21:13] Jos Collignon: yeah. Well, well, up on the upper left side, you see in the, in the big letters it says, uh, after Russia, uh, Now Iran two is chairman of the UN Human Rights Council.

[00:21:27] Jos Collignon: That is what it says on the left. And then on the right it says, uh, I asked midlife, uh, midlife mid journey. I asked mid journey, um, generate for me a big red cat with a Russian fur hat on, and next to it, a black cat, Iranian cat with a round with round glasses and a white beard. Furthermore, 10, frightened white mice all seated at a conference table with a UN logo on the wall.

[00:22:08] Jos Collignon: I thought that will be the cartoon. So I, I, I gave the, the submission. And I got this back. So when I got this back, I looked at it and I thought, well, this isn't exactly what I meant. In fact, it's not at all what I meant as a, as a drawing, it wouldn't work. So I put the conclusion under there with, uh, my, it, it's, it is some, a portrait of myself and I concluded for the time being I'll do it myself.

[00:22:44] Taylor Jones: That's, that's great. That's great. I think it's very funny. You know, I'm, I'm curious. Yeah. Well now the cats, were they, I mean, in, in, in, I know that AI and these art programs, they can, you know, uh, you can just, uh, call up whatever things you want and you get these. So were these, so these, were these different cats?

[00:23:06] Taylor Jones: Were they sort of. Generated or were they lifted, uh, by the AI program to come out like that?

[00:23:13] Jos Collignon: I think they were, I, I think they were lifted in a, a global search. Mm-hmm. And, and for cats it's easy because there are so many cats on the internet. Yeah. They were lifted in a global search, and the hats were put on by, by mid journey, uh, by the, by the, the, the bot and, uh, the, the position also.

[00:23:35] Jos Collignon: But in the end, it was not anything that I could use for my cartoon and my time was up. So I I, I had no time to, to make another cartoon. So I put this one in the paper with the, the, the, with the, the self-portrait. and uh,

[00:23:51] Daryl Cagle: I think it's, I think it's funny and I should say, you know, I talk a lot about cartoons we can't draw because editors don't want that stuff.

[00:24:00] Daryl Cagle: But, um, I don't talk that much about what editors really do want. And one thing that they seem to want in practice, rather than what they say, but what they in practice show that they want is cats and dogs. You put cats and dogs in cartoons, the editors just love it, especially cats. Um, I had an idea one time that, uh, you know, maybe one of these cartoonists that's, uh, writing to us that wants to be syndicated, he's not quite good enough.

[00:24:31] Daryl Cagle: If he would draw just cats in all of his cartoons, he would be our most popular cartoonist. Every cartoon just depicts everyone as a cat. Um, I have suggested that to a couple of guys that they, I don't wanna do that. I, I thought it would be funny. It's crazy to look at the statistics and see when it's cats,

[00:24:52] Daryl Cagle: it's,

[00:24:52] Jos Collignon: yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:24:54] Jos Collignon: But the problem is a bit, we have become political cartoonists. We want to say something with our cartoons and, and we want to stand, we want to have a standpoint and have a lot of humor to express that standpoint. I think that's what we are trying to do.

[00:25:10] Daryl Cagle: Do you think that, do you think that a cartoonist could decide to say all of the things he wants to say, but with the constraint that he has to use cats to say it

[00:25:21] Jos Collignon: Well, there are, there are.

[00:25:22] Jos Collignon: Well, yeah, I could, I

[00:25:23] Taylor Jones: could, Daryl, you want me to just drop her? Yeah. I

[00:25:25] Jos Collignon: remember an Australian cartoonist. Who used only animals. Ah. And, uh, and it, and he expressed the real situation that was, in his opinion over there in Australia. Well, and he was hugely popular. It is about 50 years ago. I don't know his name anymore, but I saw an album album by him and it was very good quality.

[00:25:46] Daryl Cagle: Well, you know, Taylor does all these wonderful bird cartoons and, uh, yeah. I was suggesting to him that if he just did bird cartoons, like I was suggesting to

[00:25:54] Taylor Jones: , I, I'm tempted Darryl. Uh, you know, I'll tell you that, that cat in the middle there with the Iranian cat, wherever that image came from on a t-shirt, that would sell a ton of t-shirts, you know.

[00:26:05] Taylor Jones: Yeah. Just that one cat there, that stern looking imam cat.

[00:26:09] Jos Collignon: Yeah. But, but the other one where the orange, uh, firefighters helmet or something on the right. You know, and his looks are marvelous as well. Yeah. These

[00:26:18] Jos Collignon: are,

[00:26:19] Jos Collignon: it's a great, Taylor was fun

[00:26:20] Daryl Cagle: to do. Taylor, are you gonna go with the birds?

[00:26:23] Taylor Jones: I'm gonna do more. Yeah, I'm, I'm, I've got, I've got Bird. I got a whole bunch of ideas. It won't all be birds, you know, primates are pretty good too, but, uh, I'll, I'll be doing more bird stuff. That's great. And,

[00:26:35] Jos Collignon: and, and MacNelly had his, had his MacNelly had had his, his birds.

[00:26:40] Taylor Jones: Well, of course Oliphant had his little penguin, but

[00:26:43] Jos Collignon: Yeah. Yeah. But, but MacNelly had a, a daily strip. Uh Oh, yes. Yes. Oh, yes.

[00:26:48] Taylor Jones: Right? Yes. Yeah.

[00:26:50] Jos Collignon: Shoe it was called. Yes, that's right. That's right. So maybe it's, uh, time for you, Taylor. Maybe it's time to, uh, pick up something new and be the most important cartoonist in the, in the United States.

[00:27:03] Taylor Jones: Be, you know, to be, to be serious about it with that is that, you know, I don't, I don't do, I don't do as much day-to-day political things for Cagle, and especially since I, I'm not with El Nuevo Dia anymore. Uh, that then, and the things I do for Hoover Digest, the only problem is that, that. That stuff has done way in advance.

[00:27:24] Taylor Jones: Now, some of those illustrations, cartoons, yeah, they have a pretty long shelf life, but there's others that I know that I, yeah, I can't do this now. Or maybe something five years may say, oh, I can use this again. Yeah. But, but, uh, uh, the thing about it, I've done a b I've done a bunch of nature cartoons for Daryl, mostly sending centering on birds, but not all of them.

[00:27:44] Taylor Jones: But doing it on birds allows me to kind of do it anytime, any anywhere, you know, and, and, uh, where I don't have to be, because what I find myself is, I'm, I'm, I'm not as quick on the draw anymore when it comes to a lot of day-to-day political commentary. And, and, and because the news cycle is so fast and continuous that this stuff becomes all hat, you know?

[00:28:05] Taylor Jones: So, And, uh, so yeah, I think I should do this, Daryl. Good.

[00:28:09] Joep Bertrams: Oh, very good.

[00:28:11] Joep Bertrams: It's, I'm looking forward to it done over the years, Donald,

[00:28:13] Joep Bertrams: that make mouse the whole bunch, all, all animals.

[00:28:18] Taylor Jones: Well, I'm only 35 miles in Disney World,

[00:28:20] Daryl Cagle: so there's, I I don't know any editorial cartoonist who's ever, ever done it entirely with animals or particular well characters like that.

[00:28:29] Daryl Cagle: Well,

[00:28:31] Jos Collignon: there are so many, so many topics that last forever. I mean, what the actuality, what happens is one, but there are also things between left and right or or about religion or Oh no, you don't want religion, I'm sorry. But about a lot of things that last forever.

[00:28:52] Daryl Cagle: Well, you know, American cartoonists, have this trope of the old couple watching the tv, and they, they can comment on anything in the news and you don't really have to draw it.

[00:29:01] Daryl Cagle: Yeah, draw, because it's on TV and you know, they're commenting on it. And, I do a lot of those, which you know, a little too by shame, uh, because they're so easy. And I actually draw it with the back of the TV cuz then I don't have to draw what's on the TV. And that makes it even lazier. Um, but you know, all of those, it's right, all of those could be birds talking to each other.

[00:29:22] Daryl Cagle: They don't have to have the tv. They just talk about the, they could, they could be birds watching tv

[00:29:27] Taylor Jones: in case it's since, since, uh, you also in Europe. Haven't seen any of these. These are pretty realistic. I mean, they're meant to be funny, but, but you know, I, I, uh, uh, I'm long time interested in, in, in, you know, all kinds of things in nature and, and, uh, so I enjoy, I enjoy, uh, drawing them well and, and, uh, I don't, I have a better feel for birds for whatever reason.

[00:29:51] Taylor Jones: You know, I, I, I spend a lot of time, I've got this extensive butterfly garden, but insects are hard to draw, uh, for me, um, I don't really, I'm not very mechanically inclined. And my feeling is that someone who can draw, if you can draw like a racing motorcycle really well, I mean really, really well, you can draw insects well, I have trouble with a lot of machinery and that makes insects, uh, uh, but birds just something I, I don't know.

[00:30:17] Taylor Jones: I, I, I have a more, a better feel for them birds and primates than, than a lot of other animals.

[00:30:24] Jos Collignon: Yeah, there are a lot of English guys who draw birds fantastically. Yeah. And, and very fast. And, and, uh, yeah, I admire that because that's not my style either. thank you

[00:30:35] Jos Collignon: Daryl for everything,

[00:30:37] Daryl Cagle: gentlemen. It was very nice having you and we'll, we'll have an extra episode of us just chatting and that will be charming.

[00:30:43] Daryl Cagle: Well, that'd be good

[00:30:45] Taylor Jones: be, I certainly enjoyed it. And again, thank you for inviting, including me, and, uh, great to meet you Jos.

[00:30:52] Daryl Cagle: And thank you everybody for joining us. For our, everybody our extra chat after our Putin part two, podcast. And, remember to subscribe to the CagleCast wherever you go. Uh, subscribe, subscribe and, thank you for being here.

[00:31:10] Daryl Cagle: And uh, we will see you next time. See you later, gentlemen. Bye-bye. See you later.

Transcript:

[00:03:11]Daryl CagleSo Taylor here you've got, Putin, much like, president Bush reading the book to the, kids, as 9/11 happened here. You've got Putin with Goodnight Freedom, good Night Ukraine, reading a book to the school kids in Russia. That's a, that's a lovely drawing and a lovely metaphor.

[00:03:30]Taylor JonesWell, thank you. This was for, the Hoover Institution, they are probably, I mean, um, best known for their Hoover archive, where they're very, very, it's a, it's, it's, I guess, the world's biggest archive outside of Russia for, uh, all kinds of Soviet, uh, memorabilia, uh, writings.

[00:03:50]Taylor JonesUh, things from dissidents, all that stuff. They've got all that at the Hoover Institution. And, and, and of course part one of the Hoover Fellows, I guess he's, I'm not sure if he's still alive or very, very old. Uh, one of, uh, a, a famous American historian of Russia. Uh, and this was foreign, an article either by him or about him.

[00:04:09]Taylor JonesUm, and, uh, the thing is that, um, if, if you go back to that cartoon for a second, Daryl, um, uh, I, you know, that could be taken as almost, it's certainly not meant to be pro Putin. But of course what he's doing is, part of the story was saying how, uh, uh, Russia is trying to, um, is, is very strongly indoctrinated, indoctrinating its young children about the, the, the glorious adventure that is the, uh, the, um, well, they don't call it a war, what do they call it in Ukraine?

[00:04:43]Taylor JonesUm, that the Russians, uh, uh, and, and, um, But you know, somebody could look at this and take it the wrong way, I would think, you know, and think that, um, this is almost in, in favor of Russia and, uh, obviously

[00:04:57]Jos CollignonNo, no, no. I can't. I can't.

[00:04:59]Taylor JonesOkay, good.

[00:05:00]Adam ZyglisTell, tell Taylor, was this a reference to Goodnight Gorilla as a parent of young children, that's the only thing I, that's, I thought Goodnight.

[00:05:06]Adam ZyglisMove right away. That classic book. Yeah. Good. It was like Good Night, good Night, moon. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's a

[00:05:12]Adam Zyglisgreat book.

[00:05:12]Jos CollignonThank you. Well, I mean, but Good Night Ukraine with an explosion under it that makes you not really very enthusiastic for Putin.

[00:05:21]Daryl CagleSo here's a wonderful cartoon with a Teenagery sullen Putin in his room with, the keep out signs on the door and this is, this just has how so much character and it's so much fun.

[00:05:35]Daryl CagleYou've got Boris and Natasha from Bullwinkle on a poster on the wall. It's hilarious.

[00:05:40]Taylor JonesWell, you know, uh, uh, of course that's the, that's back in Putin's more svelte days. Uh, so he had, he was kind of raw bone then and, uh, uh, but thank you. Um, uh, you know, he's, he, he has, Putin has lent himself in so many ways in terms of caricature not to, to, to all of us.

[00:06:01]Taylor JonesAnd, uh, you know, it's, um, uh, he's always fun to draw. Uh, I think he's gotten harder to caricature because he's, um, because he's kind of puffed out. Uh, it's a different look. And, and there are some cartoonists that, that really handle that really well. Such as Ed Wexler, he's really got the, uh, the puffy Putin down, uh, flat.

[00:06:22]Taylor JonesYeah. Perfectly

[00:06:23]Daryl CagleThat's a wonderful cartoon. I enjoyed that. I like the ones that have so much character. And here you're drawing that crazy church guy and the Pussy Riot, people being crucified. And, uh, you know, any crucifixion, this cartoon's not gonna get printed, but, uh, it's wonderful cartoon.

[00:06:40]Taylor JonesThis is for, this is for the port, the newspaper in Puerto Rico, and down there, you had, what I had to be careful of was things that might seem critical of the Catholic Church, but otherwise, you know, whether it's fundamentalists, Protestants or Russian Orthodox, they were quite, uh, and frankly, you could be, um, well you could, you could be a little, um, you could be a little edgier regarding Israel that, uh, in, in Nuevo di as well.

[00:07:06]Taylor JonesYes, this is got religion and blood, Daryl, so I guess no, no go. And crucifix.

[00:07:10]Daryl CagleOh, you've got blood in there too. Oh, no. Double whammy here.

[00:07:15]Taylor JonesI, I mean, uh, by the way, that was done, that was done in the first round of sanctions against, uh, Putin regarding Ukraine back in, what, 2014. But it turns out what all, all the problems, you know, it still works today because, Despite all the problems Russia's having and how they're doing so poorly in the war, apparently, from what I've read, the sanctions aren't having much of a dent, and in fact, there was a story the New York Times today where both Boeing and Airbus in Europe, Europe despite sanctions, are supplying all kinds of parts and what have you to their commercial airline industry.

[00:07:50]Taylor JonesSanctions generally don't seem to work for the mo no matter who you, uh, you know, they, they haven't brought Iran to its heels. It, it, they, it seems like a, in some ways a terrible waste of time. It's more done for, it makes it look like we're doing something when, uh, uh, perhaps we could be doing something more effectively.

[00:08:06]Daryl CagleI think giving the sanctions enough teeth for them to be effective is just so difficult and unpleasant that yeah, they don't do that

[00:08:14]Taylor Jonesright to make 'em really work. Then they hurt us as well.

[00:08:17]Daryl CagleHere's another lovely cartoon from you, Taylor. You've got, uh, Putin the Snake and he's, uh, devouring and swallowing Ukraine, and he thinks takes a while, but I always finish my supper.

[00:08:29]Taylor JonesWell, I've had, I've had, uh, I've, I've portrayed Putin as I think, eight or nine different animals and he just lends himself to that. Uh, I know that, I forget whether it was, I think it was Yoju who had, uh, uh, you had um, uh, uh, Putin as the wolf in a China shop and he just sort of lends himself to, uh, to that kind of exaggeration

[00:08:53]Daryl CagleHe does Wonderful car.

[00:08:54]Daryl CagleYeah, he is beautiful. Yeah, really. Here's another wonderful one. You've got, uh, leopard Putin, and he's coming up on all of the, the critters. What, what, what are those critters?

[00:09:08]Taylor JonesWell, you got gnus wildebeasts or gnus.

[00:09:10]Daryl CagleThose are wildebeest and gnus. Same thing thing, labeled thing. The Baltics Donetsk Ukraine, Belarus, Moldova.

[00:09:18]Daryl CagleAnd the storybook says the leopard closely evaluates the herd of gnus, seeking to identify the weakest animal, one with an injury or perhaps a young calf. The leopard then tries to separate this gnu from the rest of the herd so it can go in for a quick kill. That's a lovely cartoon.

[00:09:37]Taylor JonesWell, thank, yeah, I've, uh, um, uh, I watch a lot of nature programs.

[00:09:45]Joep BertramsI can see that the way you do the leopard with it's

[00:09:50]Joep Bertramsshiny on, on his back and well, appreciate that.

[00:09:53]Taylor JonesIt was fun. It was fun to do.

[00:09:54]Daryl CagleYeah. Oh, it's great fun. This cartoon.

[00:09:57]Taylor JonesUh, but, um, uh, I, I, I've, you know, I've, this is a third podcast. I've been, Darryl's been nice enough to invite me in and, uh, uh, this was a, I think a, an especially fun one. I think I

[00:10:13]Jos Collignoninformed, he asked me before, but, but I didn't, dare, dare so now he asked me for the second time.

[00:10:20]Jos CollignonI said, let's give it a try.

[00:10:23]Daryl CagleVery good. Uh, there are

[00:10:25]Jos Collignonless enough to keep me going.

[00:10:28]Daryl CagleThere are less, less topics I can use the international guys for. Uh, cuz you don't draw as many cartoons about the other topics we've been doing. But, um, I would like to get you guys both on more and, uh, we'll do more maybe, we'll, maybe we will do those Middle East ones.

[00:10:45]Jos CollignonI'll try to hear my, okay. I try to hear more from the, the, the circumstances you American cartoonists working in compared to what I am used in Europe, but it didn't get off the ground and, and, and maybe it's, it's something to talk about later. I mean, those were great things to talk about when we were in France with everybody and, uh, on the train and, and being there.

[00:11:12]Jos CollignonAnd we had, we had really nice discussions about it.

[00:11:16]Taylor JonesWell, I, I can't remember whether it was Jos or you, uh, mentioning that you talked about meeting with, uh, I guess it was you Jos talking about, uh, yeah. Uh, dinner with your, uh, editors and the breakfast cartoonists. But were these all, were these all cartoonists for one paper or are these bunch of cartoons Yeah.

[00:11:35]Jos CollignonYeah. Every paper in Holland has one or two or Wow. Sometimes three cartoonists. And that's, that's, they take pride in having these guys. That's wonderful. And they also take pride in letting these guys draw what they want to draw, because that makes the voice personal. Yeah. And as you read columns, you like a columnist who has his personal voice and his personal, uh, uh, uh, personal well, things to say and, and, uh, and that's what they it is my experience, you know, I mean, uh, you has different experiences, but I work for this paper for 40 years now, and, uh, they have a tradition.

[00:12:17]Jos CollignonMy predecessor worked for 50 years at this paper, and sometimes we really have discussions with the chief editor and, well, not really, but, but sometimes it looks like a fight. And then I know he can, he can check me whenever he wants to, but, Usually it goes in the open and, also in the paper is written about it.

[00:12:40]Jos CollignonMm-hmm. So I get the support of many readers and they write letters and, and those letters are published mm-hmm. Also in the paper. So it's more like a big community. And that's is also the strength of the paper. Well, you know, and, uh,

[00:12:57]Jos CollignonI think also

[00:12:58]Joep Bertramsin Europe, cartoonists are much more appreciated, uh, and, and much more honored as well than in, in the United States.

[00:13:08]Taylor JonesThat's true. You know, when I, I think, think so during, during the years, I, I, I did, I was never an employee of the newspaper in Puerto Rico, but I, I, uh, uh, did work for them on a freelance basis a lot, uh, for 30 years, including the time for about 10 years where I was doing three cartoons a week for them.

[00:13:28]Taylor JonesBut they already, they, they, all, that time, they already had a cartoonist and they would use other cartoons, uh, uh, just other cartoonist work as well. Now, I don't mean syndicated stuff, just who they, someone would come in, uh, oh, yeah. We use this cartoon, I think in Latin America too. of course, Latin American newspapers are having the same problems that American newspapers are.

[00:13:46]Taylor JonesAnd in fact, I was canned for that reason. because they just didn't have the funding anymore. But, um, um, mm-hmm. They, and, and you know, the thing is something that isn't done in the us uh, for the most part was that they, they have, they would've cartoons throughout the newspaper. They would, you know, the, uh, uh, cartoons and caricatures, not just confined.

[00:14:05]Taylor JonesAnd of course, often on the on the front page. Now, I guess in New York, the, um, New York Observer who did that, but that's just not, that's not been an American thing since, since, oh my goodness. You would, you would know the car, the cartoonist long gone from the Des Moines Register. Uh, whose cartoons appeared on the fir on the front page, or, or did his successor?

[00:14:25]Taylor JonesDaryl? Um, I can't, I can't. Brian. Brian Duffy. Duffy is, this is still appearing on the front page cuz that, that was the tradition in the Des Moines Register in Iowa. But, um, uh, that's something that, you know, generally editorial cartoons have been confined to the editorial page and then syndicated work Yeah.

[00:14:43]Taylor JonesTo the op-ed page. But in Latin America, there's a lot more. There's, there's, and is that true? Is that true in Holland and elsewhere in Europe too, where you might see it all, you know, cartoons all over the, the, the newspaper?

[00:14:55]Jos CollignonNo, no, no. It's not, not that. No, it's not that cover. Not everywhere in the paper.

[00:15:00]Jos CollignonIt's, it's usually confined to the oped page. Okay. But I, I, I did three a week and my colleague did also three a week. So we did it together and, uh, we had our own voice and, and, uh, and um, uh, well, Most of the papers, most, most of the national papers anyway in the Netherlands have this situation. And most of them are very careful with their, with their cartoonists and, and, uh, and they are really appreciated.

[00:15:34]Jos CollignonAnd also by the readers because they, they tell us we are part of the face of our papers. That's what they literally tell us. So they want, don't want to lose us. And, and our, and well, maybe we draw a bit along the lines of the paper. I, I think it is. That's why we work there for so long, but they leave us.

[00:15:57]Jos CollignonAnd also if there's discussion about a cartoon, Who cares. It's an opinion page. It's an oped page. So there is supposed to be discussion.

[00:16:06]Joep BertramsLet me tell a little experience I had,

[00:16:09]Joep Bertramsuh, in this respect. Cause I was,

[00:16:11]Daryl CagleJoep, while, while you tell us your experience, I'm gonna bring back one of your cartoons that got skipped by accident.

[00:16:19]Daryl CagleAnd, uh, this is a wonderful cartoon. Oh, really? Would, would they put the, the price cap on, Putin's oil? Um, and I guess this is kind of an optimistic cartoon thinking that price cap would make more of a difference than it seems to have made. But I just thought this cartoon was great Keep the lid firmly closed. That's fun. Uh, that's fine. Yeah. Yeah. But I, so you were saying

[00:16:43]Joep Bertramsyes cause the experience, uh, because I was sacked.

[00:16:47]Joep Bertramssome time ago by, Het Parool by the, the editor. And, uh, they had to take, she had to take me back because the, the, the, the reader responded, didn't want it this way, and they wanted me back in, in the paper.

[00:17:02]Joep BertramsBut I left. In the end, I, I left because that's no way of working together. But I still, uh, worked there for a year and then I could, uh, look for another job. And I found from E Huna Amshalaga,

[00:17:16]Joep Bertramsfor instance,

[00:17:18]Joep Bertrams, and also in, in

[00:17:22]Joep Bertramsseveral times, it occurs that a cartoon is used on the front page when there's a special, uh, issue or a special, uh, occasion, because there are no photos.

[00:17:35]Joep BertramsUh, and then they can use, they did. So it is possible to get on the front page,

[00:17:41]Jos Collignonbut

[00:17:41]Jos CollignonDaryl,

[00:17:42]Jos CollignonIt's hard at the moment for you and for American cartoonists because a lot of the cartoonists, uh, are being sacked and have no possibilities anymore to go anywhere. And that's because of the, the, uh, the, the, uh, different opinions in America that's gone too wide out of each other.

[00:18:00]Daryl CagleWell, we had, uh, the experience last year of the biggest. American newspaper chain Gannett, uh, deciding to drop editorial cartoons entirely in what was then about 400 papers out of about, uh, 1200, 1300 daily papers overall in America. So it was a very large percentage of the papers and it hit our syndicate very hard.

[00:18:24]Daryl CagleA lot of, uh, great papers that have been subscribing to us for 20 years just suddenly stopped printing editorial cartoons entirely. Oh. Um, because Gannett wanted to get away from having the left versus right stuff, the donkeys and the elephants. Yeah. They didn't want the friction between the left and the right, which is what they said was the reason they did this.

[00:18:46]Daryl CagleOf course, yeah. And they wanted the papers to have more of a local focus that didn't lend itself to left and right. And that's very frustrating. Uh, some of the Gannett papers stayed with us, uh, Gannett papers in California and Florida, which is wonderful, and we love those papers. And, uh, they're very committed to editorial cartoons.

[00:19:06]Daryl CagleBut, you know, the hundreds of Gannett papers left and that's, uh, a great frustration for us. And we're seeing that in other papers for more, for other reasons than Gannett. Um, a lot of papers are consolidating and you find that, There'll be one paper in a little regional group that is the editorial staff of maybe two people for maybe six papers in this the area.

[00:19:33]Daryl CagleAnd those other six papers may have little or no staff, maybe one reporter or two reporters, and the papers put together in another place. Uh, that's very, very frustrating. Uh, there are some papers that are like ghost papers that exist with no employees, um, and they're entirely put together by another paper in the region.

[00:19:54]Daryl CagleUm,

[00:19:55]Taylor Joneswow. I guess AI will be taken care of that before, before too. Wrong. You know, the ai, you know, imagine, I was thinking the other day if a, um,

[00:20:05]Daryl Caglewe had our second, AI cartoon. Yes. That was submitted to us by, Jos. Uh, I could dig that up if you wanna see it. Yeah, I'd love, let, let me get that. Um, I, you know, I should say, I, I was thinking of, of doing a little extra, you know, like on the Bill Maher show, they've got this extra cuz they sit and talk some more.

[00:20:25]Daryl CagleAnd I think I'll do that with this one. Well, we'll do something extra.

[00:20:29]Jos CollignonThat would be nice.

[00:20:30]Daryl CagleOkay, so, uh, here is Jos's, AI cartoon. I think this is hilarious, and I have no idea what, what you've written about in here.

[00:20:39]Jos CollignonUm, no, no.

[00:20:40]Jos CollignonI'll

[00:20:40]Jos Collignontell, I'll

[00:20:41]Jos Collignontell you.

[00:20:41]Daryl CagleWell, let, well, let me say that this is Okay. We, we had one AI cartoon that we syndicated, and I'd love to syndicate this one too. I, I think it's hilarious depending on what you wrote in it. And, sometime there's gonna be somebody who can't draw, who isn't a cartoonist, but who's a good writer and can get the AI to do stuff that goes with good writing.

[00:21:02]Daryl CagleAnd then we're gonna have a tough decision to make, which is, do we wanna do that? Uh, until now, that has never happened. Um, but, but it could,

[00:21:13]Jos Collignonyeah. Well, well, up on the upper left side, you see in the, in the big letters it says, uh, after Russia, uh, Now Iran two is chairman of the UN Human Rights Council.

[00:21:27]Jos CollignonThat is what it says on the left. And then on the right it says, uh, I asked midlife, uh, midlife mid journey. I asked mid journey, um, generate for me a big red cat with a Russian fur hat on, and next to it, a black cat, Iranian cat with a round with round glasses and a white beard. Furthermore, 10, frightened white mice all seated at a conference table with a UN logo on the wall.

[00:22:08]Jos CollignonI thought that will be the cartoon. So I, I, I gave the, the submission. And I got this back. So when I got this back, I looked at it and I thought, well, this isn't exactly what I meant. In fact, it's not at all what I meant as a, as a drawing, it wouldn't work. So I put the conclusion under there with, uh, my, it, it's, it is some, a portrait of myself and I concluded for the time being I'll do it myself.

[00:22:44]Taylor JonesThat's, that's great. That's great. I think it's very funny. You know, I'm, I'm curious. Yeah. Well now the cats, were they, I mean, in, in, in, I know that AI and these art programs, they can, you know, uh, you can just, uh, call up whatever things you want and you get these. So were these, so these, were these different cats?

[00:23:06]Taylor JonesWere they sort of. Generated or were they lifted, uh, by the AI program to come out like that?

[00:23:13]Jos CollignonI think they were, I, I think they were lifted in a, a global search. Mm-hmm. And, and for cats it's easy because there are so many cats on the internet. Yeah. They were lifted in a global search, and the hats were put on by, by mid journey, uh, by the, by the, the, the bot and, uh, the, the position also.

[00:23:35]Jos CollignonBut in the end, it was not anything that I could use for my cartoon and my time was up. So I I, I had no time to, to make another cartoon. So I put this one in the paper with the, the, the, with the, the self-portrait. and uh,

[00:23:51]Daryl CagleI think it's, I think it's funny and I should say, you know, I talk a lot about cartoons we can't draw because editors don't want that stuff.

[00:24:00]Daryl CagleBut, um, I don't talk that much about what editors really do want. And one thing that they seem to want in practice, rather than what they say, but what they in practice show that they want is cats and dogs. You put cats and dogs in cartoons, the editors just love it, especially cats. Um, I had an idea one time that, uh, you know, maybe one of these cartoonists that's, uh, writing to us that wants to be syndicated, he's not quite good enough.

[00:24:31]Daryl CagleIf he would draw just cats in all of his cartoons, he would be our most popular cartoonist. Every cartoon just depicts everyone as a cat. Um, I have suggested that to a couple of guys that they, I don't wanna do that. I, I thought it would be funny. It's crazy to look at the statistics and see when it's cats,

[00:24:52]Daryl Cagleit's,

[00:24:52]Jos Collignonyeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:24:54]Jos CollignonBut the problem is a bit, we have become political cartoonists. We want to say something with our cartoons and, and we want to stand, we want to have a standpoint and have a lot of humor to express that standpoint. I think that's what we are trying to do.

[00:25:10]Daryl CagleDo you think that, do you think that a cartoonist could decide to say all of the things he wants to say, but with the constraint that he has to use cats to say it

[00:25:21]Jos CollignonWell, there are, there are.

[00:25:22]Jos CollignonWell, yeah, I could, I

[00:25:23]Taylor Jonescould, Daryl, you want me to just drop her? Yeah. I

[00:25:25]Jos Collignonremember an Australian cartoonist. Who used only animals. Ah. And, uh, and it, and he expressed the real situation that was, in his opinion over there in Australia. Well, and he was hugely popular. It is about 50 years ago. I don't know his name anymore, but I saw an album album by him and it was very good quality.

[00:25:46]Daryl CagleWell, you know, Taylor does all these wonderful bird cartoons and, uh, yeah. I was suggesting to him that if he just did bird cartoons, like I was suggesting to

[00:25:54]Taylor Jones, I, I'm tempted Darryl. Uh, you know, I'll tell you that, that cat in the middle there with the Iranian cat, wherever that image came from on a t-shirt, that would sell a ton of t-shirts, you know.

[00:26:05]Taylor JonesYeah. Just that one cat there, that stern looking imam cat.

[00:26:09]Jos CollignonYeah. But, but the other one where the orange, uh, firefighters helmet or something on the right. You know, and his looks are marvelous as well. Yeah. These

[00:26:18]Jos Collignonare,

[00:26:19]Jos Collignonit's a great, Taylor was fun

[00:26:20]Daryl Cagleto do. Taylor, are you gonna go with the birds?

[00:26:23]Taylor JonesI'm gonna do more. Yeah, I'm, I'm, I've got, I've got Bird. I got a whole bunch of ideas. It won't all be birds, you know, primates are pretty good too, but, uh, I'll, I'll be doing more bird stuff. That's great. And,

[00:26:35]Jos Collignonand, and MacNelly had his, had his MacNelly had had his, his birds.

[00:26:40]Taylor JonesWell, of course Oliphant had his little penguin, but

[00:26:43]Jos CollignonYeah. Yeah. But, but MacNelly had a, a daily strip. Uh Oh, yes. Yes. Oh, yes.

[00:26:48]Taylor JonesRight? Yes. Yeah.

[00:26:50]Jos CollignonShoe it was called. Yes, that's right. That's right. So maybe it's, uh, time for you, Taylor. Maybe it's time to, uh, pick up something new and be the most important cartoonist in the, in the United States.

[00:27:03]Taylor JonesBe, you know, to be, to be serious about it with that is that, you know, I don't, I don't do, I don't do as much day-to-day political things for Cagle, and especially since I, I'm not with El Nuevo Dia anymore. Uh, that then, and the things I do for Hoover Digest, the only problem is that, that. That stuff has done way in advance.

[00:27:24]Taylor JonesNow, some of those illustrations, cartoons, yeah, they have a pretty long shelf life, but there's others that I know that I, yeah, I can't do this now. Or maybe something five years may say, oh, I can use this again. Yeah. But, but, uh, uh, the thing about it, I've done a b I've done a bunch of nature cartoons for Daryl, mostly sending centering on birds, but not all of them.

[00:27:44]Taylor JonesBut doing it on birds allows me to kind of do it anytime, any anywhere, you know, and, and, uh, where I don't have to be, because what I find myself is, I'm, I'm, I'm not as quick on the draw anymore when it comes to a lot of day-to-day political commentary. And, and, and because the news cycle is so fast and continuous that this stuff becomes all hat, you know?

[00:28:05]Taylor JonesSo, And, uh, so yeah, I think I should do this, Daryl. Good.

[00:28:09]Joep BertramsOh, very good.

[00:28:11]Joep BertramsIt's, I'm looking forward to it done over the years, Donald,

[00:28:13]Joep Bertramsthat make mouse the whole bunch, all, all animals.

[00:28:18]Taylor JonesWell, I'm only 35 miles in Disney World,

[00:28:20]Daryl Cagleso there's, I I don't know any editorial cartoonist who's ever, ever done it entirely with animals or particular well characters like that.

[00:28:29]Daryl CagleWell,

[00:28:31]Jos Collignonthere are so many, so many topics that last forever. I mean, what the actuality, what happens is one, but there are also things between left and right or or about religion or Oh no, you don't want religion, I'm sorry. But about a lot of things that last forever.

[00:28:52]Daryl CagleWell, you know, American cartoonists, have this trope of the old couple watching the tv, and they, they can comment on anything in the news and you don't really have to draw it.

[00:29:01]Daryl CagleYeah, draw, because it's on TV and you know, they're commenting on it. And, I do a lot of those, which you know, a little too by shame, uh, because they're so easy. And I actually draw it with the back of the TV cuz then I don't have to draw what's on the TV. And that makes it even lazier. Um, but you know, all of those, it's right, all of those could be birds talking to each other.

[00:29:22]Daryl CagleThey don't have to have the tv. They just talk about the, they could, they could be birds watching tv

[00:29:27]Taylor Jonesin case it's since, since, uh, you also in Europe. Haven't seen any of these. These are pretty realistic. I mean, they're meant to be funny, but, but you know, I, I, uh, uh, I'm long time interested in, in, in, you know, all kinds of things in nature and, and, uh, so I enjoy, I enjoy, uh, drawing them well and, and, uh, I don't, I have a better feel for birds for whatever reason.

[00:29:51]Taylor JonesYou know, I, I, I spend a lot of time, I've got this extensive butterfly garden, but insects are hard to draw, uh, for me, um, I don't really, I'm not very mechanically inclined. And my feeling is that someone who can draw, if you can draw like a racing motorcycle really well, I mean really, really well, you can draw insects well, I have trouble with a lot of machinery and that makes insects, uh, uh, but birds just something I, I don't know.

[00:30:17]Taylor JonesI, I, I have a more, a better feel for them birds and primates than, than a lot of other animals.

[00:30:24]Jos CollignonYeah, there are a lot of English guys who draw birds fantastically. Yeah. And, and very fast. And, and, uh, yeah, I admire that because that's not my style either. thank you

[00:30:35]Jos CollignonDaryl for everything,

[00:30:37]Daryl Caglegentlemen. It was very nice having you and we'll, we'll have an extra episode of us just chatting and that will be charming.

[00:30:43]Daryl CagleWell, that'd be good

[00:30:45]Taylor Jonesbe, I certainly enjoyed it. And again, thank you for inviting, including me, and, uh, great to meet you Jos.

[00:30:52]Daryl CagleAnd thank you everybody for joining us. For our, everybody our extra chat after our Putin part two, podcast. And, remember to subscribe to the CagleCast wherever you go. Uh, subscribe, subscribe and, thank you for being here.

[00:31:10]Daryl CagleAnd uh, we will see you next time. See you later, gentlemen. Bye-bye. See you later.