Israel at WAR! Top Israeli cartoonists discuss the current situation through cartoons. Michel Kichka, Uri Fink and Moshik Gulst #29

Cartoons are never more important than at a time of war - and never so difficult to draw. Daryl Cagle interviews
three top Israeli editorial cartoonists, Michel Kichka, Uri Fink, and Moshik Gulst, about their cartoons on the
current war with Hamas.

In this episode the cartoonists discuss the complexity of the situation, the role of PR in the war, and the
challenges of depicting the ongoing violence. They also touch on the perception of Israel's military and
intelligence capabilities, the role of Hamas in the conflict, and the impact of the conflict on Israeli society.

Host Daryl Cagle ( interviews: -

Michel Kichka: An editorial cartoonist for various Israeli television stations and a professor at
Bezalel Art Academy in Jerusalem. He is also known for his graphic novels, including one about his Holocaust
survivor father. -

Uri Fink: A popular comic book artist, writer, and editorial cartoonist. He is the president of the
Association of Israeli Cartoonists and has published numerous books and magazines. -

Moshik Gulst: The head cartoonist for Israel Hayon, the highest circulation newspaper in Israel.
Moshik is also the author of award-winning comic books.


00:00:00 Introduction to three of Israel's top newspaper political aartoonists Michel Kichka, Uri Fink and Moshik
00:01:39 Discussion about the use of the Dove of Peace in cartoons.
00:02:30 Reflection on the shocking
events of the war and its impact.
00:03:27 Conversation about the PR war and the perception of the conflict.
Criticism of the notion of symmetry and disproportional reactions.
00:06:42 Frustration with Arab cartoonists'
celebration of the conflict.
00:07:38 Internal debate about the Israeli government's role in the situation.
Perception of Israel's competence and its impact on the conflict.
00:09:13 Discussion of the complexity and
regional implications of the conflict.
00:09:32 Michel Kichka discusses the danger of the conflict in the region.
Uri Fink talks about his cartoon depicting Harvard students protesting against Israel.
00:11:25 Uri Fink explains
his cartoon featuring Gal Gadot and Mark Ruffalo.
00:13:31 Moshik Gulst discusses his cartoon depicting a Hamas
artist and the inspiration for terror attacks.
00:15:18 Moshik Gulst talks about the evergreen theme of the
conflict between Israel and Palestine. 00:17:54
Michel Kichka adds his thoughts on the recent attacks and the
tragedy of the situation.
00:19:09 Introduction to the discussion about the conflict between Israel and Hamas
The Israeli cartoonists criticize a Chris Weyant cartoons for "symmetry".
00:20:14 Uri Fink's view on Hamas and
its goal
00:21:39 Michel Kichka likes a cartoon by Tom Janssen from Holland, depicting hostages in tunnels.
The cartoonists disagree on the portrayal of Netanyahu in a cartoon by Bart van Leeuwen, from the Netherlands.
Uri Fink's perspective on criticizing the government during war
00:24:33 Discussion on a Dave Granlund (USA)
cartoon with blind Netanyahu; the cartoonists don't like it.
00:25:21 Uri Fink's confusion about an Andy Singer
cartoon depicting a dog biting its own tail
00:26:30 Michel Kichka's interpretation of the Andy Singer
00:27:17 Discussion on another Dave Granlund cartoon about civilians told to evacuate from Gaza. The
Israeli cartoonists don't like it.
00:28:09 Debate about whether civilians in Gaza have a place to evacuate
00:29:23 Conversation about the support for Hamas among Gaza civilians.
00:30:06 Cartoon by Emad Hajjaj
from Jordan. Mention of Palestinians being used as human shields by Hamas.
00:31:11 Difficulty for moderate Arabs
to condemn Hamas and identify with Israel.
00:31:27 Analysis of a Marian Kamensky (Austria) cartoon showing
Palestinians bringing the war upon themselves.
00:32:19 Criticism of another Emad Hajjaj cartoon comparing Hamas
to a cat.
00:33:11 Discussion on the serious nature of editorial cartoons.
00:33:53 Reminder to subscribe to
the Caglecast and announcement of a part two.
00:34:11 Farewell and hope for peace.


[00:00:00]Daryl CagleHi, I'm Daryl Cagle, and this is the CagleCast,

[00:00:03]Daryl Caglewhere we're all about political cartoons. . And today we have three great Israeli editorial cartoonists to discuss their cartoons about the conflict with Hamas and the Palestinians. Gentlemen, it is great to have you here. Hey,

[00:00:17]Uri Finkgreat to be here, Daryl. Great to be here.

[00:00:19]Uri Finka fan of the podcast.

[00:00:20]Michel KichkaHi, Daryl. Hi, Paul.

[00:00:21]Daryl CagleMichel Kichka is an editorial cartoonist for various Israeli television stations. He draws graphic novels. novels, including an impressive one about his father, who was a Holocaust survivor. Michel won the Cow at Saint Just le Martel and a ton of other awards, and he's a professor at Bezalel Art Academy in Jerusalem.

[00:00:38]Daryl CagleWelcome, Michel. He was

[00:00:38]Uri Finkmy professor, actually. I think it was both of us, no? Off the

[00:00:41]Moshik Gulstline. Yeah. He was our professor. And

[00:00:44]Michel KichkaMoshik, too. But when you were a student, I was not a professor. I was just a teacher. I was younger.

[00:00:49]Daryl CagleAnd also, you invited me to go give a speech to the whole college there, and that was really great fun and a very impressive college, I've got to say.

[00:00:57]Daryl CagleYes. Big and impressive.

[00:01:00]Michel KichkaAnd we have a new campus that you must visit next year.

[00:01:03]Daryl CagleOh, my goodness. Well, uh, this is one of your cartoons the international, cartoonists, draw a lot of, uh, doves of peace. And, uh, it's, it's one of, uh, one of those standard, I, I guess the French call it a cliché that we use.

[00:01:17]Daryl Cagleand, uh, so you've got the dove of peace in the hourglass here as I guess Gaza is, uh, getting destroyed and their time runs out. Yep. This is, uh, and of course the skeleton of the Dove of Peace, I think to fully appreciate it, uh, readers just need to know how, ubiquitous that Dove of Peace is in international cartoons, so, uh, that, that makes it all the more interesting.

[00:01:39]Daryl CagleSo, beautiful drawing,.

[00:01:40]Michel KichkaThanks a lot. The truth about this cartoon is that on the first day of the war, on October 7th, I was so shocked that, uh, I could not imagine what I can draw. And I used this cartoon that I published in 2021. If you, if you look at the date, it's from 2021. And, uh, and it was when the Hamas, uh, tried to attack Israel with tunnels.

[00:02:05]Michel KichkaOkay. Which is different from today. This, this cartoon actually does not describe the reality because on the 7th was a massacre. It was a pogrom. Cruel and barbarian. And so this cartoon is too soft. But we did not know yet. I did not know yet what was the situation. And so I, I put it online and then I began to draw every day one or two cartoons up to date according to the situation.

[00:02:30]Michel KichkaYou see the date on the bottom right? Yeah. And you have Ashkelon, Ashdod, and Tel Aviv. And, uh, and, you know, it seems like a normal war, but what happened on the seventh is not a normal war. That was something different, and there's a huge consensus in Israel that, uh, that was a barbarian attack and a terrible shock, and it will take years to overcome it.

[00:02:52]Michel KichkaAnd we, all of us, have so many friends in this part of the country, including the south of the country. And they are going to funerals every day, you know. uh, thirteen hundred killed people in twenty four hours almost. Never happened in our history. And so for many people, you know, they give them back, you know, they think back about the Holocaust.

[00:03:10]Michel KichkaAnd they think back of the situation of Israel during the Independence War in 1948. So we are in a terrible situation. And we don't know where it's going. So this cartoon is nice. It's beautiful. Thank you. But it's not... It does not describe exactly what is happening here now. I must say.

[00:03:27]Daryl CagleWell, you know, it is also a PR war.

[00:03:30]Daryl CagleAnd here in America, we got all the news about the horrors of the Hamas massacres. for about four days, and then the news switched to, uh, the people suffering in Gaza. And I suspect that that's the way it's going to stay, for quite a while. which, is interesting to me that, Hamas seems to be so successful in this PR war.

[00:03:55]Daryl CagleThat may be... , their goal achieved

[00:03:57]Michel KichkaYeah, yeah.

[00:03:58]Michel KichkaSomehow

[00:03:59]Uri Finkthey have plenty of useful idiots over there. That's the, that's the, that's the tragedy. That's the tragedy. But, uh, I dunno, there, there are some, uh, I think even people in the Arab world that, uh, are shocked by the massacres, some of them.

[00:04:12]Uri FinkHopefully, you know, maybe it'll take time and, uh, they will realize their, the error of the ways. I don't know that this is, this is not, uh, this is, you know, this is not Islam. This is not, uh, fighting for freedom. It's just the barbarism.

[00:04:24]Daryl CagleSo, uh, here's another one from you, Michel, that's, uh, looking for symmetry is justifying barbarism, and, showing that There isn't equality on both sides of the horror.

[00:04:35]Daryl Cagleuh, on television they make, quite an effort to offer equal time to spokesmen from each side.

[00:04:42]Michel KichkaThere are two things in this situation that, uh, that really, uh, make me angry. The first one is people who are talking about symmetry. It is symmetric, okay? What we do and what they do is the same.

[00:04:56]Michel KichkaThis is one thing. And the other thing, that is, a lot of people talk about the disproportion of the reaction of Israel. and, uh, people forget, they are simply forgetting, that the Gaza people are by themselves hostage of the Hamas, who is shooting and, and launching their missiles. from the population concentrations inside of Gaza.

[00:05:18]Michel KichkaAnd there's no way to make a war. It's not an army. It's a guerrilla of terrorists. That's a very, such a complex situation. And making the symmetry or making the, talking about this proportion, is simply not just. And so this is what I did in the previous cartoon and also in this one, just to explain people that the reaction of Israel to terror and pogrom and barbarian and massacre and slaughter and butchery must be understood.

[00:05:45]Michel KichkaAnd people don't have to forget that the Hamas, not the Gaza people, the Hamas, is a terrorist organization. And their ideology is erase Israel from the map. And so, there's nothing we can talk about with them for the future, to construct something in the next future.

[00:06:02]Uri FinkThe thing that surprised me and, uh, I mean, even a bit offended me is the, some of the Arab cartoonists. That were very joyful the minute the massacre happened, you know, and the celebratory cartoons and I said, Come on, really, I would never, you know, I think I don't think any Israeli cartoonist ever celebrated.

[00:06:21]Uri FinkChild, uh, killing, being killed in Gaza or anything. It's always a necessity for us to go to war. Nobody wants to go to war. Nobody wants to bomb anything. And, uh, some of, I mean, I, people I met in San Just and all that, and I'm thinking these people. Uh, you know, would celebrate when I'll be slaughtered. And my, I don't know, my, my children and everything, and then they will celebrate, you know, they will be happy.

[00:06:42]Uri FinkSo it's really, left me a bit, uh, you know, in a very bizarre positions all of a sudden, but hopefully maybe they just, just don't realize, or I don't know, I, I still have a hope that maybe they will come around someday and understand, the difference between, uh, you know, the, Israel and Hamas, which is, you know, it's, it's like, like Michel said, it's, it's totally different entities.

[00:07:01]Uri FinkLike Hamas is, Hamas is actually responsible for destroying the Oslo process. He's the one who killed it. I mean, with the suicide bombings and all of that, it's an organization of pure evil. And this time they exposed themselves as such and still people, you know, they see the poor people in Gaza and that's, uh, that's the only thing they see.

[00:07:19]Michel KichkaAnd now by liberating one by one hostages, they want to appear as a humanitarian organization. Okay. But you know, uh, Daryl, there's something very important that if you are not Israeli, you can't understand it. We are in Israel. Also, not all of us, but a main part of the Israelis are absolutely

[00:07:38]Michel Kichkacriticizing the politics of our government who is responsible for the situation for the last 15 years. And I mean Bibi Netanyahu, okay? I have to name him. And so we are in a situation that somehow we have to defend ourselves by cartooning and to explain our position to the world by our cartoons. But in the other hand, we, we, we try to, control our hard feelings that we have towards this collapse of the intelligence service of Israel, of the lack of preparation of the army, and everything is due to the way Netanyahu rules this country for 15 years.

[00:08:14]Michel KichkaAnd this is an internal debate, and we try to avoid it because we are at war, but you can't separate the things. It's very, very complicated to us.

[00:08:24]Daryl CagleYou know, there has been a perception that, Israel is this very big, very efficient, very, good intelligence service and military, and that's kind of been shattered by this failure, and that's a, that's a costly loss because, just having that, perception of, competence, uh, like America lost when we went into Iraq.

[00:08:45]Daryl CagleUm, that's a, that's a big loss and that emboldens the enemies.

[00:08:50]Michel KichkaYes, and you know, we are on a big chess game led by Iran. And we also have high tension with the Hezbollah in the north, which is also a terrorist organization. And the Lebanon people are also hostage from Hezbollah. This is a very complicated situation. So if you are not really aware of what is happening here in the Middle East, in this region, you can't understand the situation now between Israel and Hamas.

[00:09:13]Michel KichkaIt's much bigger than that. Much, much complex than that. Your president came. On the war to Israel, and this is the first American president ever who did it. And so it means that the situation is very serious. And it had international implications. It's not just a conflict as the conflict that we had in the past with the Hamas.

[00:09:32]Michel KichkaThis is something much bigger and much more dangerous for the future of the region.

[00:09:36]Daryl CagleSo, Yuri Fink is a very popular comic book artist and writer along with being an editorial cartoonist. He's published 22 books of his popular Zbing comic strip and comic book and is the editor of Zbing magazine which had Over 200 issues.

[00:09:52]Daryl CagleUri is the president of the Association of Israeli Cartoonists and is an old convention buddy of mine, and he went to Bezalel Art Academy in Jerusalem. Welcome, Uri.

[00:10:01]Uri FinkHey, great to be here.

[00:10:03]Daryl CagleI'm going to show a couple of cartoons from each of you. Uh, this is one of yours. Uh, you know, there have been all those protests at, Harvard, that, uh, look pretty anti Semitic.

[00:10:12]Daryl CagleSo you've got Hitler in one pocket and the Harvard student in the other pocket. Although, actually, uh, you have her as a Har ward, student. I wonder why you changed Harvard.

[00:10:23]Uri FinkMaybe just, you know, the deadline, uh, you know, uh, breathing down my neck. Maybe I misspelled it, but the whole thing is, that, uh, That's the equipment of the, uh, you know, of the Hamas terrorists, the way they, they're part of their equipment is, is the, the Nazi ideology and the, and the Harvard idiots, you know, that, uh, continue to protest against Israel, even though, you know, we are now definitely the, the victims for a change.

[00:10:50]Uri FinkUh, so that's, that's the point of the

[00:10:51]Daryl Caglecartoon, you know.

[00:10:52]Daryl CagleWell, I think you were the victims in the media for about four days, and then they switched to the Palestinians being the victims, and, it looks like it's gonna be that for about four months.

[00:11:02]Uri FinkYeah, it looks like, it looks like that, but, uh, you know, it, uh, you have to do what you can, you know, so I do a cartoons, I, I try to do cartoons as much as I can that have not, not too much text in Hebrew, you know, that, uh, but now you, you, you know, you're, uh, this is from today, this is actually the cartoon that was published today, so I still have time to maybe, uh, correct the mistake and post it again.

[00:11:24]Daryl CagleOkay, here's another one of yours.

[00:11:25]Uri FinkThis is for tomorrow. This is the cartoon from

[00:11:27]Daryl Cagletomorrow. Oh, this is for tomorrow. Gal Gadot versus Mark Ruffalo. I have to explain these cartoons because, uh, this is also an audio podcast. And so people that don't see it don't have any idea of what's going on.

[00:11:39]Daryl CagleSo, I apologize for that. Mark Ruffalo says, Yes, I am a bit anti Semitic. As he holds his "Stand with Gaza" sign and he's roped by Wonder Woman.

[00:11:48]Uri FinkI take every opportunity because I'm a big American comic book fan, so every opportunity I have to use American superheroes in my cartoons, I take it, so now there's a big, you know, Gal Gadot is on our side because she's a, you know, a full blooded Israeli, and Mark Ruffalo as the Hulk, he's against us, he's always posting against Israel and all that.

[00:12:07]Uri FinkSo, yeah, that's a good opportunity to, to draw the Hulk and then Wonder Woman in, uh, in, uh, in the political cartoon.

[00:12:12]Daryl CagleYes, that's interesting. I didn't know that that was his, um, uh, vocal point of

[00:12:18]Uri FinkOh, yeah, he's one of the most vocal, uh, anti Israeli, uh, uh, actors, you know, he's, uh, he has occasionally has to apologize because it turns out that he supports some horrible act or something.

[00:12:30]Uri FinkUh, but, uh, now there was two, like two big letters sent to Biden or whatever. We are celebrities and we are protesting the support to Israel. And then another list of Israelis, we are. you know, support Israel. So, and that's the, that's the conflict there between the two list of celebrities. And I chose the representatives that I, you know, I like to draw.

[00:12:53]Uri FinkI like to, that's part of my, my world. That's the superheroes. And, you know, I drew them.

[00:12:59]Daryl CagleNow I will introduce Moshik Gulst, who is an editorial cartoonist originally from Ashqelon, a city which has recently been devastated by rockets from Gaza.

[00:13:10]Daryl CagleHe currently lives in Tel Aviv area. He's the head cartoonist for the largest newspaper in Israel, as well as several other newspapers. He's an author of several national award winning comic books and works closely with the international human rights organizations. And he, uh, too. studied under, Michel at Bezalel, Art Academy in Jerusalem.

[00:13:29]Daryl CagleNice to have you with us, Moshik.

[00:13:31]Moshik GulstHi, nice to be here. Thanks for inviting

[00:13:33]Daryl CagleHere's one of yours. Uh, you've got a Hamas, uh, artist painting like Picasso, kind of, uh, uh, horror, Picasso, of a disembodied. victim, and defense officials expect the latest attack to inspire others, and the Hamas artist says this is what will happen to the next Jew I meet.

[00:13:53]Moshik GulstSo, actually, this is a cartoon I did, a year ago. Oh, really? So, um, yeah, so it just, it, got a new, uh, meaning, uh, new dreadful horror, uh, meaning. and it. It's connected with the things that, uh, with the previous cartoon by Michel that some of us, some of the cartoons that we do, they seem to, um, to be relevant again and again and again.

[00:14:16]Moshik GulstAnd this, uh, this, this thing, I, it was before I even thought of such a barbarism that happened on the 7th of October, the 7th. And I did it after just one, uh, terror attack that somebody, um, stabbed, uh, Israeli. and we have, uh, this, cop cats that just mimic, the terrorist, actions. so, uh, that, that was the, the, the main, uh, the main theme.

[00:14:40]Moshik GulstUm, and I care. A lot of the defense officials, uh, they always say that one, one terror attack inspired other terror attacks. So I just, I thought, okay, what could be inspiring? I took it to the, to the art field. And so, uh, yeah. And, some, and today just got, uh, horrific meaning. And the sad thing is that this is not the most, Horrific things that was done in the, in the terror attack.

[00:15:05]Daryl Caglethere is a theme of the cartoons about, Israel and the Palestinians of, the conflict repeating and going on forever. And, those cartoons are evergreens. you can look back in your archives and run those anytime. Yeah,

[00:15:18]Moshik Gulstyeah. I'm sure it happened to, to all of us. Again and again.

[00:15:21]Moshik GulstAnd although this attack is something different, because, it killed the, like, the faith in a lot of Israelis that somehow you can't get, I don't know, you can't have peace with the neighbors. And suddenly the, the difference between East and West, became, uh, For my opinion, really, uh, clear, uh, and, the result is, is devastating for, for a lot of Israelis that, for, from what I, I hear, uh, from, I'm originally from the south and what I hear from a lot of people who were there where their parents that killed or their friends that killed who managed to escape the, the horror.

[00:15:55]Moshik GulstAnd a lot of them had, uh, really, uh, like, peaceful, um, views. They are, uh, shattered. They just don't know what to do. Their hope is gone. And... So, today I wouldn't do, uh, this kind of cartoon. Because it's just too, too, still too, too fresh.

[00:16:13]Daryl CagleOkay, uh, here's another one of yours. The Conflict in a Nutshell is a four panel cartoon. 1940, no to a Jewish state. 1967, no to a Jewish state. That looks like Yasser Arafat. 2014, Abbas, no to a Jewish state. And 2100, no to a Jewish state. It just goes on and on. One of those on and on cartoons.

[00:16:34]Daryl CagleAlthough, uh, you see the, the buildings growing bigger and more successful looking, in Israel as the years go by.

[00:16:42]Moshik GulstYeah. Yeah, because, that's what we, that's what we do in Israel. We try to, to be successful, to make life, to, to, to bring, uh, achievements. we always try to, Put our hands, uh, and then try to make peace with the neighbors.

[00:16:55]Moshik GulstAnd the funnest thing for me is that, um, this attack and the war, a lot of people are beginning to call the Hamas and also the Palestinians, some of them Nazis. And this is, um, something that wasn't really popular before. And because of the, the, the horror that we experienced these kinds of, of actions only, only in the Holocaust.

[00:17:15]Moshik GulstMm-Hmm. . And, in the forties, the, the, leader of the Palestinian national movement, uh, Hamen Hui, he was a Nazi. So somehow it's like the history has a way of repeating itself or, or connecting to the past or I don't know what, but um. This is also something interesting. And also, at the end, the fourth panel, it's a Hamas soldier's

[00:17:37]Michel KichkaIt sums up the situation. I like this cartoon. I haven't seen it before because it sums up the situation of the tragedy of the two people. The Palestinians who have no states and Israel who have no peace. Okay? Somehow.

[00:17:50]Daryl CagleThey are

[00:17:54]Michel Kichkatalking to Americans, I would like to add something about the villages and kibbutz who have been attacked on October 7th. You know, most of those villages and kibbutz, mainly kibbutz, they are leftists. And some of them have relation, work relation with people from Gaza for years and years. and some of them have friends in Gaza. And so this is why what happened in October 7th is so terrible.

[00:18:18]Michel KichkaNo one imagined some of the people who have been taking hostages or assassinated were, uh, in NGOs helping, people from Gaza to be taken in Israeli hospitals to get operations that the services that they can't get in Gaza. And, uh, helping, helping, helping them in all the ways they could. And so they could not imagine.

[00:18:38]Michel KichkaAnd the other thing is that in 48, there were the pioneers who defended the south border of Israel against the Egyptian army. So those people are the constructors of this state. They are also those who are ready for compromise. And they were the victims of this terror attack. This is terrible for them. I think that feelings that they had is also due to this, let's say, the lack of any illusion of possible solution for a conflict in the generation to come, one or two generations.

[00:19:09]Michel KichkaThis is terrible what happens. People have to measure it. It's not like what we knew before with Hamas. That's something

[00:19:16]Daryl Cagledifferent. Well, I'm going to go through, a dozen, uh, cartoons from around the world. And, uh, maybe you guys wanna make some comments. This one's by Chris Wyant. one of our cartoonists.

[00:19:26]Daryl CagleOh, I thought this was, uh, for, a symmetry cartoon. I thought this was,

[00:19:30]Uri Finkoh, yeah, we, yeah. We already discussed the, the symmetry thing. Symmetry is not, uh, don't think it's, uh, appropriate at the moment. 'cause it really wasn't symmetry this time because, uh, what Hamas. What I think is we have to separate the thing is we have to the only thing that I can identify with this cartoon Is that it shows the Palestinian flag and not the Hamas flag.

[00:19:50]Uri FinkI think the only thing that we should And the only realization you should come to is that Hamas, Hamas has always been an organization that is, as I said, is pure evil. This is nothing to talk to him. We can't negotiate with him, can't do anything with him. So I think his point was to attack those kibbutzim because he knows those are these biggest enemies, the people who believe in peace, so that he targeted those kibbutzim.

[00:20:14]Uri Finkspecifically to, you know, to, wipe out any hope for peace. That was it. That's his goal, all his existence, everything he, that's his, uh, that's his raison d'etre, to stamp out all hope for peace.

[00:20:27]Daryl CagleWell, you know, the symmetry thing is, what we're hearing as a drumbeat on television all the time. 1, 400 casualties in, uh, Israel and 4, 000 in Gaza.

[00:20:38]Moshik GulstI think that, I think we live in a, in a world that, uh, like the, the, the strong is less moral. I mean this, way of thinking of a lot of people. So if you're strong, it means that, you are less moral or less ethic or, and I guess that like. It's if you, if you try to, to see it like, you know, in American eyes, it's like Canada was, was, uh, I don't know, uh, was governed by ISIS and attacked America.

[00:21:04]Moshik GulstSo the U. S. So, but, but, uh, the U. S. is much stronger. So, you know, I'm sure, uh, Montreal would, would have suffered a lot of, uh, bombshells.

[00:21:14]Uri FinkDeath to America, eh? Yeah, that's, that's, uh, the Canadian. The

[00:21:18]Michel Kichkaprevious one, you know, the previous one shows a misunderstanding of the situation, I think, because this cartoon is very generic.

[00:21:25]Michel KichkaIt could be the cover of a book explaining the long conflict between Israel and Palestine. This cartoon will always be right, but it's not up to date, as we say. It's not about what is happening now.

[00:21:39]Uri FinkYes. It's too light. Yeah. That's the thing is, okay. Thank you.

[00:21:43]Michel KichkaThis is Tom, no?

[00:21:44]Daryl CagleThis is Tom Janssen.

[00:21:46]Daryl CagleAnd, the hostage is hidden in the tunnels.

[00:21:48]Uri FinkThe thing is that, uh, the good thing is that Hamas terrorists, they wear masks and you don't have to draw their faces. Because if you had to draw their faces they would be like monsters and it would be it would be a cartoon. Idiotic, I dunno.

[00:22:01]Uri FinkSo it's good that they wear masks, so you have to draw them, just draw a person with a, with a mask and a, green headband, and you're set, it's a Hamas snake. It's not a Palestinian, we don't, don't fight Palestinians. We fight Hamas snakes. That's, that's the whole, that's the, that's the difference.

[00:22:16]Uri FinkYou don't, uh, you know, and that's the, the thing is he's trying to get in and, and look for it.

[00:22:21]Michel KichkaI must say that, I don't know Tom, I never met him. But I like this guy. I like his work, and all his cartoons are artistically wonderful, intelligent and sophisticated, and balanced. I really like this man.

[00:22:33]Michel KichkaI'd like to meet him in one of my next trips to Europe. He's from Holland.

[00:22:37]Daryl CagleHe comes to St. Just sometimes, this one's by Bart Van Leeuwen, with the Hamas driving, out between the legs of Netanyahu, not much, Security from Netanyahu.

[00:22:48]Uri FinkYeah, that's a cartoon that could be done in Israel nowadays. I mean, but an Israeli cartoonist would, they, they, some of them draw pretty much, uh, in that vein, you know, that, that kind of, uh, a way of thinking that, uh, Netanyahu as an idiot, as a buffoon, and still, you know, and you don't see the faces, it's good.

[00:23:04]Daryl CagleWell, Netanyahu is looking pretty terrible with all that, judicial reform. Oh, yeah. I mean, he looks like a villain here.

[00:23:11]Uri FinkOh, really? I thought he looked funny. Maybe. Okay. Maybe I look at that

[00:23:14]Daryl Caglealone. No, I mean with regard to the courts. I

[00:23:17]Michel Kichkathink this cartoon, I think this cartoon, the previous one that you showed, you can't understand what is the position of the cartoonists.

[00:23:23]Michel KichkaThis one? Yeah, this one. It could have been done in Gaza, in a local newspaper, celebrating the Ah,

[00:23:29]Uri Finkyou think so? Yeah. Looks celebratory to you? I don't know. I don't

[00:23:33]Daryl Cagleknow. The whole, the focal point of this is, Netanyahu's butt.

[00:23:38]Moshik GulstYeah, yeah. I think Michel is right because, uh, I mean, just, uh, I think today or the day before, the Iranian, press service just posted the Israeli cartoon and it's hard in a war to criticize, without your enemies try benefit from it.

[00:23:51]Moshik GulstAnd I think in the times of war, it's one of the hard things, I mean, for me, for us as a cartoonist, I'm sure. Which I don't know if he will, will agree. Yeah.

[00:24:01]Daryl CagleOkay. Well, to be fair to Bart, I don't, I don't think there's any pro Hamas in this cartoon. No, I don't think

[00:24:07]Michel Kichkaso. This cartoon published in Gaza would make people laugh, and in Israel it would make people

[00:24:11]Uri Finkcry.

[00:24:12]Uri FinkNo, no, I don't think, well, come on, have you seen the cartoons in Ha'aretz? The second day of the war, Yeah. Biderman drew a cartoon of the entire government hiding under the table. Yes, I see. I saw it. That's, that's a defining cartoon. I mean, people are turning like crazy all over the, all over the internet.

[00:24:29]Uri FinkSo, I think it's very important to keep criticizing the government, especially now that they're so incompetent. Not security wise, I'm talking about, you know, the whole managing of the, the

[00:24:40]Daryl Caglecountry. This is a Dave Granlund cartoon with, Bibi Netanyahu, being blind with his Intel guide dog, who is also blind.

[00:24:48]Uri FinkWell, that's not very, that's not very, uh, clever, I think. It's just, uh, I don't know. It's not that clever.

[00:24:56]Daryl CagleJust illustrating the situation, I guess. Alright, here's a, cartoon from Andy Singer, uh, terrorism just touches the tail of the Israeli dog, which then, rushes to bite his own tail.

[00:25:08]Uri FinkThat's, uh, that's nasty. That's, that's a nasty cartoon because, you know, it's like overreaction that has all the elements of, Of a wrong position on the matter.

[00:25:17]Daryl CagleWell, that is half the news that we're getting that uh, Israel is overreacting

[00:25:21]Uri FinkNo, I think the thing is then we are we like the dog's bite is supposed to be the terror attack of I don't understand. I, I don't understand , I'm sorry, please. I, I think that,

[00:25:31]Moshik Gulstthat this is the, the, the goal of, of terrorism. Like, maybe here it's, I don't know, look a little bit funny or something, but, uh, terrorism can't win military wise.

[00:25:41]Moshik GulstSo they just try to, to make you fall into your own, uh, holes. And then just, like they, they did. To so many other Western countries, I think, um, that's eventually, you know, especially in Gaza, it happened a lot and with the Palestinians that they're doing terrorist attacks and eventually, eventually just, um, it shakes apart the political structure.

[00:26:04]Uri FinkI don't understand the dog biting. When did we bite our tail? I don't understand.

[00:26:10]Uri FinkI mean, what's the tail bite represents? I don't understand this cartoon, really.

[00:26:15]Michel KichkaYou want me to explain? How I understand

[00:26:18]Uri Finkit? Yes, please do. Please do, professor.

[00:26:23]Michel KichkaNo. I'm your colleague,

[00:26:28]Michel Kichkaand your friend.

[00:26:30]Michel KichkaIt's about the difficulty to fight against an army, against something which is not an army. And actually, uh, the Americans have experienced it in Afghanistan. Actually, they did not know how to fight there. and the consequences were a lot of loss of lives and, and money for the American and they couldn't bring stability to the region.

[00:26:53]Michel KichkaAnd as far as they left Afghanistan, the Taliban came back. So when it's not a, let's say a normal war, is there such a thing, a normal war? But again, terror, you sometime bite yourself. I mean, you, you, you, you go on being the victim of the fight, the right fight that you are doing, trying to do.

[00:27:09]Michel KichkaIt's not so simple. So I, I don't, don't think it's so nice. I think that, uh, we still don't know how it'll end. We'll see.

[00:27:17]Daryl CagleHere's another grandlin cartoon with, uh, Israel will allow, civilians to evacuate. And Gaza at the edge of the cliff with nowhere to go. Says to where, yeah.

[00:27:27]Uri FinkOkay. That, okay. That's, that's simply wrong because if, if Egypt would let open the, the border, they would be able to go there.

[00:27:35]Uri FinkIt's not a cliff. It's not a cliff. It's the, you should, you should draw there in Egyptian. And not letting them in. I mean, that's the whole, uh, problem. They, they say they are, are barrack. That that's a, and and, and it's not. I mean, they have a open border. They have a border with Egypt as well, so they could go there, but they, they don't let them.

[00:27:54]Uri FinkSo this cartoon is simply, it's nice, it's funny. So it's a funny situation, but it's a wrong situation. It's not that, it's not that way, you know, but,

[00:28:04]Daryl Caglebut you know, given that Egypt won't let them in, there is no place to evacuate.

[00:28:09]Uri FinkOkay. Okay. But, uh, if you ignore that fact, you know, you, you, you're simply left with the fact that, uh, the tank is one to, you know, okay.

[00:28:18]Uri FinkThat's, uh,

[00:28:19]Moshik Gulstif I may add, something that maybe it's not quite, um, uh, spoken in the media that, that a lot of the people who made all those atrocities were civilians. I mean, it wasn't just Hamas terrorists. Okay. It was a lot of, uh, just ordinary cousins who came into the, kibbutzes and settlements and all this, and just, like, slaughtered.

[00:28:40]Moshik GulstAnd this is something that really, um, made the people of Israel horrific and made them like shocked. And, and it's also, um, So, so this is like, um, something that's, when you see it in all the cartoons, you see, all the, just the Hamas militants and Hamas fighters and, and terrorists, and not the civilians, but this is a point that's, It's worth, uh, talking about or mentioning.

[00:29:05]Daryl CagleWell, the point that we see on TV all the time is that the civilians are victims and not necessarily in support of Hamas, but my understanding is that, there hasn't been an election, on the West Bank for the Palestinian Authority for 17 years, largely because there's an expectation that they would vote for Hamas.

[00:29:23]Daryl CagleAnd, it may be, it seems to me that perhaps the civilians in Gaza support Hamas, even though there's no election. Do you look at it that way?

[00:29:33]Michel KichkaListen, I think that in Gaza itself, the people have no choice. There's no... The political party has opposition.

[00:29:39]Daryl CagleIf they had a choice, would they vote for Hamas?

[00:29:42]Michel KichkaListen, I don't know. I don't know, but this cartoon, The second balloon where to where is written could be... uh, Hamas want us to use as human shields. Okay? So we will not evacuate. Because I don't know if you heard of it in the American media, but some of the Palestinians from Gaza who moved to the south in the direction of the Egypt border were also bombed and killed on their way to there.

[00:30:06]Michel KichkaBecause the Hamas did not want them. They wanted to use them as human shields. And It seems that people are forgetting that. Okay? So, this cartoon could be good with another caption. Even better, I see.

[00:30:17]Uri FinkOkay. I've seen that one. I've seen that one.

[00:30:19]Daryl CagleHajjaj, yes. This is by Emad Hajjaj. Yes.

[00:30:23]Uri FinkEmad Hajjaj is a great cartoonist, but, uh, But he did this one.

[00:30:27]Uri FinkThis one that

[00:30:27]Michel Kichkahe did. This is one of the softer.

[00:30:29]Uri FinkYeah, but this is, like Michel said, it could be done as a book cover for the situation. Everything.

[00:30:34]Daryl CagleIt was done in the last week.

[00:30:36]Uri FinkYeah. That's not, that's the only , that's the only thing that it's relative to, to this, to this, uh, discussion because it's, it could be done anytime, you know?

[00:30:45]Uri FinkAnd who killed this? Uh, this could be Kibbutz Bay.

[00:30:49]Daryl CagleWell, this is obviously Israel that killed the bird because it's the bombed out building. And,

[00:30:54]Uri Finkuh, well, we, yeah. Yeah, the kibbutz team don't look much better now. I mean, so after the, you know, after the massacre, so, I dunno. Okay.

[00:31:03]Michel KichkaYou know, the, the, I think that the difficulty of moderate, , people in the Arab part is that they condemn the Hamas.

[00:31:11]Michel KichkaThat they, they cannot also identify with Israel. So, so this cartoon is somehow soft, even if it's not right. It's soft. It tries to be somehow moderate. And it's well done artistically. He's a very good artist, but, uh, it's really one sided. Really, really. One sided.

[00:31:27]Daryl CagleThis one's by Marian Kaminsky from Austria.

[00:31:30]Daryl CagleYeah. Okay.

[00:31:30]Uri FinkUm, okay. That's, uh, , the first one that I can really, you know,

[00:31:34]Uri Finkthat puts all the blame on the, on the, on the Palestinians. Uh, that's,

[00:31:38]Daryl Cagleuh, yeah, and it shows that they, uh, they, that that's something I should have a good idea of what was gonna happen.

[00:31:44]Uri FinkYeah. , that's a, that's one. I, I thought I, I should have, I wish I, I, I thought about that. Uh, cartoon, that's the first one that I said is, wow.

[00:31:52]Uri FinkThat's a great one. That's a good image. And, uh, and it, it shows the situation. What's, uh, what's probably about to happen, I guess.

[00:32:02]Daryl CagleOh, that's, here's another Hajjaj cartoon.

[00:32:04]Uri FinkYeah. I, I, I don't know if I'm, uh, you know, that's another, the attitude towards Hamas as a cat is, is too forgiving, I think. It's not, the, both Hajjajs, they, all the time, they, they can't, they can't bring themselves to be really against Hamas.

[00:32:21]Uri FinkThey can't bring, I don't know, it's not legal in, I don't know, in Jordan to do things like that, but to compare Hamas to a cat, I don't know. I'm not a big fan of cats anyway, but, but, uh, it's not Hamas. I'm not a big fan of Hamas either, but, uh, I don't know. Like, you feel sorry for the cat, you know, but they should be much more, you know, the cat.

[00:32:37]Uri FinkShould be it's like a little demon or something should be, you know, or something more evil, you know, although cats are pretty evil, I must say.

[00:32:44]Daryl CagleThis is one of mine. it's an older one. I've got the kids in the sandbox. They're playing Israel versus Palestine and they're fighting each other and their cussin' and the Mom's...

[00:32:54]Daryl CagleThe kids are playing Israel vs. Palestinians, their mom says, how cute. And they grow up still fighting and playing, still fighting with, knives and guns now. Then they're old men, and then they die, and then they're skeletons with their bones bleaching.

[00:33:11]Michel KichkaThe good point is that they rest in peace.

[00:33:14]Daryl CagleThank you, gentlemen, for being here. That is the end of our podcast. I appreciate you, coming on to talk about all these serious issues in cartoons, because, cartoons make, serious commentary and people need to understand that not all the things we do are jokes. And, I think, editorial cartoons convey, all of those.

[00:33:34]Daryl Cagleissues better than words and, it's time that editors realize that. So, remember to subscribe to the Caglecast wherever you're watching or listening today. Our Caglecast is available in both video and audio versions, so if you don't see the cartoons, go to Cagle.Com or Apple Podcasts or YouTube or Spotify to see the cartoons and the video podcasts.

[00:33:53]Daryl CagleWe're available on all the podcast platforms, one that I like is Podcrusher, which shows the videos very nicely, but, just watch it wherever you want, but be sure to subscribe there, and, thank you all for, coming again, and, we are going to do a part two of this one, and we will see you again soon.

[00:34:07]Daryl CagleSee you soon.

[00:34:11]Michel KichkaSoon, when the war will be over. Soon.