Taylor Swift and Donald Trump –Together at Last!

Taylor Swift! Trump! Three great political cartoonists Jeff Koterba, Rick McKee, Taylor Jones and Daryl Cagle join nationally syndicated newspaper columnist, Jase Graves for a fun and lively discussion discussion through cartoons! In Caglecast Episode #34 we discover the amazing connections between Trump and Taylor Swift, and how they are influencing the political landscape, all in cartoons!  Be sure to sign up for our newsletter so you never miss a Caglecast!

I'm Daryl Cagle and this is the Caglecast, we're all about political cartoons - today our topic is TRUMP and TAYLOR SWIFT

I like Taylor Swift. Most political cartoonists criticize president Trump, and so does Taylor Swift, who is a pro choice feminist, she supports LGTBQ rights and gun control, she supported Biden/Harris in the last election, is very effective in getting out the vote from her legions of Swifties and she's a supporter of Black Lives Matter who calls for the removal of Confederate statues in Tennessee, where these monuments to Confederate racist traitors are ubiquitous. I like all of that.

We're three old cartoonist men and one columnist, doing a podcast that is watched mostly by men over 65 who only want to see cartoons bashing Trump, so, I'll introduce you all with one Taylor Swift cartoon and your most recent Trump cartoon, to meet our Trump obligation, and we'll proceed to discuss Taylor Swift cartoons.

We have three brilliant political cartoonists and one columnist ...

Jase Graves is a nationally syndicated humor columnist who we syndicate at Cagle Cartoons. He's great, his columns run everywhere , he's won a bunch of awards and he's also a university professor and closet Swifty with THREE Swifty daughters.

Jeff Koterba is possibly our most popular cartoonist, he's drawn for over thirty years for the top newspaper in Nebraska, his cartoons have flown around the world on the Space Shuttle Discovery, and he’s been struck by lightening


Rick McKee was the cartoonist for decades for the Augusta Chronicle in Georgia; he draws the comic "Pluggers" and we've syndicated Rick for 20 years. Rick generated the first syndicated political cartoon that was drawn by AI, that we discussed on Caglecast number SIX.

TAYLOR JONES is a brilliant caricaturist! Taylor draws for the Hoover Digest at Stanford University, he was the staff cartoonist for many years for the El Nuevo Dis Newspaper in Puerto Rico and he drew for many years for US News and World Report magazine. And he's won a ton of awards.


[00:00:00]Daryl CagleHi, I'm Daryl Cagle and this is the CagleCast where we're all about political cartoons. And today our topic is Trump and Taylor Swift. that's right. They're, they're together. And we're going to show Trump cartoons and Taylor Swift cartoons, but that's just because nobody watches if we don't have Trump.

[00:00:18]Daryl Cagleso we've got a little bit of great Trump, and then we're going to go to Taylor Swift. And I like Taylor Swift. Political cartoonists criticize, President Trump, and so does Taylor Swift. And Taylor Swift is a pro choice feminist. She supports LGTBQ rights and gun control. She voted for Biden Harris in the last election.

[00:00:36]Daryl CagleShe's very effective in getting the vote out from her legions of Swifties. And, she's all for the removal of Confederate statues in Tennessee, where these monuments to Racist traitors are ubiquitous and I like all of that. So, I'm a Swifty myself for political cartoonist reasons.. So today we have three brilliant political cartoonists and one columnist. Our columnist is Jace Graves. He's a nationally syndicated humor columnist who we syndicate at Cagle Cartoons. He's great. His columns run everywhere. He's won a bunch of awards, and he's also a university professor and closet Swifty with three Swifty daughters.

[00:01:12]Daryl CagleGreat to have you here, Jace.

[00:01:13]Jase GravesThank you. Go Taylor Swift.

[00:01:15]Daryl CagleOkay, Jeff Koterba, who drew this lovely Taylor Swift cartoon, is possibly our most popular cartoonist. He's drawn for over 30 years for the top newspaper in Nebraska, which shall go unnamed, His cartoons have flown around the world on the space shuttle Discovery, and Jeff has been struck by lightning.

[00:01:33]Daryl CagleIt's great to have you here, Jeff.

[00:01:35]Jeff KoterbaThank you very much, Daryl, and I'm a Swifty.

[00:01:37]Daryl CagleYou're a Swifty, and this is a very nice Swifty cartoon. Tell us about this one.

[00:01:40]Jeff KoterbaWell, this was inspired, uh, by the Dolly Parton, halftime performance.

[00:01:45]Rick McKeeI think he just wanted to draw Dolly in, her bare midriff and shorts.

[00:01:48]Jeff KoterbaI just I think I think Dolly is really cool, you know? And so, uh, yeah, I just wanted to reflect You know, we, we draw cartoons about so many awful, terrible things going on in this world. And so it's nice to embrace something more upbeat and pleasant.

[00:02:04]Jeff KoterbaSo that's what, what inspired this one.

[00:02:06]Jase GravesDolly Parton has had a huge resurgence, even among young people. All my daughters are fans of Dolly. Her song Jolene shows up on Tik Tok videos. they know her as well as they know Taylor.

[00:02:17]Daryl CagleAnd here is your most recent Trump cartoon, Jeff.

[00:02:19]Daryl CagleYou've got, Trump in his golf cart and Biden on his bike, being chased by indictments and polls. It's the race so far. That's great, Jeff.

[00:02:27]Taylor JonesThanks. Thanks.

[00:02:29]Rick McKeeI like that.

[00:02:29]Daryl CagleAnd with this cartoon, you fulfilled your Trump obligation on this podcast. Rick McKee was the cartoonist for decades for the Augusta Chronicle in Georgia. He draws the comic Pluggers and we've syndicated Rick for 20 years. It is great to have you here, Rick. Good to be here.

[00:02:46]Daryl CagleRick, here is your Taylor Swift cartoon. You've got the media talking to Uncle Sam under a avalanche. And he says, how do you feel about Travis Kelce and Taylor Swift?

[00:02:58]Rick McKeeI wouldn't say a Swifty, but I'm a recent convert to, a fan understanding, you know, the appeal of Taylor Swift.

[00:03:05]Rick McKeeMy son, Jacob actually worked on the Taylor Swift movie. He was the colorist on that. so, you know, I've seen the Taylor Swift movie with all the screaming little girls, so that was fun. But, this particular cartoon, I think this was done at the height of sort of the frenzy over the summer and it seemed like the media was completely focused on her, other than a lot of these other things that were going on.

[00:03:26]Daryl CagleAnd I guess all those other things are more weighty.

[00:03:29]Rick McKeeThey're more weighty, yes. They have, they have crushed Uncle Sam.

[00:03:32]Daryl CagleYes, and here is your, Trump and Hitler cartoon. Trump saying, Immigrants are poisoning the blood of our country. And Hitler says, I like this guy.

[00:03:41]Rick McKeeYeah, I haven't really drawn Hitler in hell, burning in hell before, so I thought that would be a good opportunity.

[00:03:45]Daryl CagleI am still, noticing the trend that when, you draw Hitler, your cartoon does not get printed. And, editors just don't like Hitler. Um, cartoonists love to draw Hitler. And there's all this talk about Trump and Hitler now with all of these, uh, Hitler references. Vermin and blood and stuff.

[00:04:02]Daryl CagleIt makes it frustrating to be a cartoonist.

[00:04:16]Rick McKeeWell, editors are so terrified of losing any more subscribers, uh, that they have brought upon themselves and, they've driven newspapers absolutely into the ground.

[00:04:26]Rick McKeeAnd so, they avoid weightier topics like this.

[00:04:29]Taylor JonesIt's not working.

[00:04:30]Jeff KoterbaI have to defend editors in general because I think that they're tired and I think that they're overworked and probably underpaid. And I think they're so tired of hearing from the extremists, from the anger. They don't have the bandwidth to do it.

[00:04:43]Rick McKeeYeah, maybe so.

[00:04:43]Daryl CagleWell, we get

[00:04:44]Jeff KoterbaLove your aluminum foil, love your aluminum foil antennae.

[00:04:47]Rick McKeeJeff, the reception in hell is terrible, so that's why they had to do that.

[00:04:52]Rick McKeeThey don't get, they don't get, they don't get cable down there.

[00:04:56]Daryl CagleI thought this cartoon was wonderful, Rick. Here you've got Trump dressed up in dictator regalia thinking, it'd be a shame to only wear this for one

[00:05:05]Daryl Cagleday.

[00:05:06]Rick McKeeI had a lot of fun drawing that one, I can tell you.

[00:05:08]Jeff KoterbaThat's fun. That's just great visual, Rick, just, it's lovely to look at.

[00:05:12]Jeff KoterbaWhat a beautiful drawing. Kind of has almost like a European cartoon kind of a flair to it,

[00:05:17]Daryl CagleWell, you know, European cartoonists draw a whole lot of generals with the military regalia. it's one of their things.

[00:05:24]Taylor JonesYou're, the best with the bubble Trump, you know, and making him as a bubble.

[00:05:27]Taylor JonesWell, I appreciate that I think what was it? What was the term we had? Last time boil more like a boil rather than a bubble

[00:05:33]Rick McKeelike a boil on your butt. Yeah, I did a you know, google image search of dictators and uh, you know idi amin What's his name from libya all of them?

[00:05:42]Rick McKeeYeah, these ridiculous Outfits on with all these medals and stuff. I think so

[00:05:48]Taylor JonesDo you remember Gaddafi's, his Praetorian guard, all women that were, you know, very stylishly militarily dressed.

[00:05:54]Jeff KoterbaAnd Rick, this is a great cartoon, visually for other reasons too, because you can see it in one image, you get the idea quickly, your brain absorbs that it has, that he has all this ridiculous regalia.

[00:06:06]Jeff KoterbaBut then if you want to spend a little bit more time with it. And dig deep. There's all this little detail, all these little, great ratings. So great. So good.

[00:06:13]Rick McKeehe aced his cognitive exam. I don't know if you could tell that.

[00:06:17]Jeff KoterbaYeah. Cognitive exam. And tiny hands, of course.

[00:06:20]Jase GravesYou can see the swastika peeking out on one of the, one

[00:06:23]Daryl Cagleof the medals.

[00:06:24]Daryl CagleYeah.

[00:06:24]Jeff KoterbaOkay, Taylor.

[00:06:25]Daryl Caglethis is yours. And we know how you love to draw birds in all your cartoons here. You've got Taylor surrounded by birds. She says, are you my fans too? And they're saying we're chimney Swifts. The original Swifties. Oh,

[00:06:37]Rick McKeethat's great.

[00:06:38]Taylor JonesWell, well, thank you. You later on, you'll see an earlier Taylor Swift.

[00:06:41]Taylor JonesI did from, um. I must have been 10 years ago, but you know, I'm not a Swiftie, but I am the only one here named Taylor and, and, Taylor Swift and I are the same height and, back when she was about 19 years old, we were pretty much the same build, but she, since she's grown into being a, basically a perfect human specimen, me, not me, you know, I'm just sort of, yeah.

[00:07:02]Taylor JonesContinuing to dwindle.

[00:07:03]Rick McKeeTaylor, I find it hard to caricature attractive people. You know, if somebody's got a unibrow or a huge nose. But, you really captured her there and, uh.

[00:07:12]Taylor JonesSo great. Well, thank you. I have a hard time doing that. I really enjoy, caricaturing attractive. people, the thing is what some caricatures make the mistake in trying to find something to make an attractive person ugly, there's usually something that you can grab on, uh, with an attractive person and especially with attractive female and you just, you just kind of exaggerate that.

[00:07:32]Daryl CagleWell, one of the things about attractive women is that their features are all very moderate and, nothing stands out in order to define them as, as pretty.

[00:07:40]Taylor JonesI, disagree with that.

[00:07:41]Taylor JonesIt's just, that's, there's, there's a sort of a, I think a, uh, kind of a notion that if you're attractive, it's for a lack of, flaws. And that's not really true at all. people like that are sort of boring looking. And to me, uh, Taylor Swift is pretty distinctive looking. And, that, and that helped.

[00:07:57]Taylor JonesShe's got,

[00:07:58]Taylor Jonesshe's got very thick hair, which she has those bangs, which, so, so, you know, the, the space between her bangs and her eyes.

[00:08:04]Taylor Jonespretty much not there. and so things like that all. So,

[00:08:08]Rick McKeewell, you captured her very well.

[00:08:09]Taylor JonesWell, thank you.

[00:08:10]Daryl CagleTaylor, this cartoon is just great. You've got Speaking of vermin, and Trump with all the vermin in his hair, you know, he's saying all these Hitler things right now about the vermin on the border coming in to poison the blood of America.

[00:08:23]Daryl CagleIt sounds just like Mein Kampf. .

[00:08:24]Taylor JonesWell, one of the great things that we've all done this is that Trump's hair allows us to do so many things with it. Yeah. You know, so just the idea, I had the Rat's nest idea in mind, basically as soon as I heard when he first started using the, that particular terminology.

[00:08:38]Taylor JonesBut, Trump's hair has been, uh, a wonderful gift for all of us.

[00:08:41]Rick McKeeYeah, that is fantastic. A lot of cartoonists would have made the mistake of writing off to the side rat's nest, you know, and you don't, you don't have to do that because you can look at it.

[00:08:49]Daryl CagleI don't, I don't think you needed to have "speaking of vermin" in it.

[00:08:52]Taylor JonesProbably not. I, uh, if you want, you know, I could, uh, you could, I could unpost it and take that off and post it again.

[00:08:59]Jeff KoterbaI hear what you're saying, Daryl. I kind of think you do need it though, just because for some of the readers who just see that little teeny bitty nudge reminder.

[00:09:07]Rick McKeeThat's true.

[00:09:08]Rick McKeeThere's a lot of people who are not as connected, with the news.

[00:09:11]Taylor JonesWell, also, and, and not to hear I'm suddenly turning around and saying, leave it on. But, vermin is not a word that you, when Trump started using that word, it's not used that much anymore. You know, pests, and of course we refer to rats or, cockroaches, but, um, a calling them vermin.

[00:09:26]Taylor Jonesand of course there's, there's obviously political connotations to the word vermin, dating centuries back.

[00:09:31]Taylor Jonesright?

[00:09:32]Jeff KoterbaIt's a powerful loaded word. So, yeah, it's.

[00:09:35]Taylor JonesWell, leave it in Daryl.

[00:09:36]Jase GravesI agree. It is lost on a lot of people. A lot of my students wouldn't know what vermin meant. it's also curious how many politicians use the word existential. Something's an existential threat and many, many people. I would guess have no idea what they mean when they say that.

[00:09:52]Daryl CagleI should have added that Taylor Jones draws for the Hoover Digest at Stanford University. He was a staff cartoonist for many years for the El Nuevo Dia newspaper in Puerto Rico.

[00:10:01]Taylor JonesSort of, sort of.

[00:10:02]Daryl CagleSort of,

[00:10:03]Daryl Cagleand you drew for many years for U. S. News and World Report Magazine, and, we love you, Taylor. So here we are on the cartoons about Taylor Swift, drawn by all of our other cartoonist friends. And this one is by John Darkow. He's got the two AI computers. And, one says, We'll let them have this one. The other one says, but it'll be the last. That was the Time Magazine person of the year.

[00:10:26]Daryl CagleI guess that's going to be the last, uh, person who's a person of the year at Time Magazine.

[00:10:32]Rick McKeestyle. I love his little robots. They're just so

[00:10:34]Taylor Jonesgreat. Yeah, John Darkow, even though this is a very simple sketch for him, his pencil stuff is always just beautiful.

[00:10:42]Daryl CagleI think there was a debate this year whether AI was really the top story and, Time Magazine went with Taylor Swift because, frankly, it's going to sell more magazines.

[00:10:52]Daryl CagleThat's right. And, I, I get that, but I'm okay with that because I like Taylor Swift. Not a change. And I don't like, I don't like AI.

[00:10:59]Rick McKeeHow about you like AI?

[00:11:00]Daryl CagleUh, me? No, it's putting, uh, my illustrator friends out of work. Oh, I thought you were okay with it.

[00:11:07]Rick McKeeIn the last conversations we've had, I thought you

[00:11:09]Daryl Caglewere Well, you know, we had, in our last podcast, we talked to, Dutch cartoonist, Bart van Leeuwen, who uses AI in his cartoons to draw all the ancillary characters in the background.

[00:11:20]Daryl Cagleyou, you hadn't figured that?

[00:11:22]Rick McKeeI had not figured that. That was a surprise to me, yeah.

[00:11:26]Daryl CagleIt's interesting how extensively he uses it. He'll draw the head of a politician and let the AI do the rest of his body.

[00:11:35]Taylor JonesDaryl, don't you think that at some point, maybe not too far, suddenly all these AI images will in fact be entirely accepted.

[00:11:43]Taylor JonesAnd you might well have a beautiful AI performer. Who, uh, does appear, uh, at Time's, whatever of the year. I think it's going to happen. Easily,

[00:11:51]Daryl Cagleeasily. Well, I think the line for us is that I don't think people are going to want to hear political opinions that come from AI. I think they probably don't mind the drawings.

[00:12:02]Daryl CagleYou know, Bart's drawings are just about all AI and we're fine with that. But, I don't think we want to know a computer's opinion about things. So, in that respect, maybe we're a little bit safe compared to the other artists.

[00:12:14]Jeff KoterbaSome news outlets are using AI to help generate news stories. Yeah. I mean, high school sports stories, things like that.

[00:12:20]Jeff KoterbaI'm not saying that that's right. Oh,

[00:12:22]Daryl Cagleyeah. Sports Illustrated Magazine. Just all AI. That's crazy.

[00:12:26]Taylor JonesUh, Daryl, uh, Rick's predecessor at the Augusta Chronicle, Clyde Wells, he and I were out for lunch. I was, I lived in, uh, Augusta for a time before Rick was there, or at least I didn't know him. And, Clyde and I went out to lunch a couple of times.

[00:12:42]Taylor JonesOne time, we were spending the whole time, this was in the 1990s, maybe 1993, 1994, and we were talking about, computers, and, Clyde was saying, computers will never be smarter than the, people who have to program them. And I said, it's just a matter of time, Clyde, that science fiction writers are right.

[00:12:58]Taylor JonesAnd I think it's just a matter of time when AI will displace us all.

[00:13:02]Jeff KoterbaYeah. Or it's a matter of Time Magazine.

[00:13:04]Rick McKeeWell, I would say, uh, don't take your, uh, technological information from Clyde Wells. I knew Clyde very well, and, uh, I had to, I had to do some of his computer work for him. So,

[00:13:19]Taylor Jonesyeah. I still work entirely by hand, so.

[00:13:22]Daryl CagleSo here we have Joe Heller and he's drawn AI as well. Drat, someone beat us to world domination. He's looking at Taylor Swift on Time Magazine cover. people had this in mind. I guess AI was a strong second to Taylor Swift. Good cartoon.

[00:13:37]Rick McKeeWell, I mean, like you said, AI should have been the number one story.

[00:13:42]Rick McKeeIt should be the thing that we're all talking about.

[00:13:44]Jase GravesAs a college instructor, we are really struggling with AI and, and trying to figure out how to teach students to use AI because we assume they will be using it when they get into the professional world, but also not to cheat with it.

[00:14:00]Jase GravesAnd it's a fine line, but it's a huge topic in higher education, as all of you can probably imagine.

[00:14:07]Daryl CagleWell, here we have Dave Whamond, and Dave Whamond has drawn Taylor Swift, named Time Magazine's Person of the Year. Also, NFL MVP, uh, as she's holding her big, NFL trophy, it's, I gather that on the sports channels, uh, whenever there's a football game, the top goes to Taylor Swift sitting in the stands watching the football game.

[00:14:30]Rick McKeeOh, yes. And, I follow, SportsCenter on Instagram, and all they post, ESPN SportsCenter. Well, not all of a post, but for a while there, it was just relentless Taylor Swift stuff. And, you know, the sports people who follow that are like, okay, enough, please. .

[00:14:46]Jase GravesI was just gonna say, I think the Chiefs and the NFL owe a great debt to Taylor Swift right now, , think of all of the new fans that she's created, all the people that are watching that would never have watched before, just to see if they could get a glimpse at her.

[00:15:01]Daryl CagleThat's going to happen with our podcast today.

[00:15:03]Jeff KoterbaThere's a, a shop in Kansas city, a little boutique, a really cool t shirt shop I've been to, in a quiet little neighborhood and, they got all of this, merch. And Taylor's hands, and this shop is blowing up. Forbes has written about them now. it's incredible just what she's done for this one little t-shirt shop in Kansas City.

[00:15:24]Jeff KoterbaI also, I love this drawing. I love the elongated neck. and even though, Taylor, I love your drawing of. It's totally different take. Dave's take is different, but, they're both great in their own way, and it's a great, to me, it's a great example of how you can have two different artists take on a face.

[00:15:39]Jeff KoterbaIt looks like them, but it's so different. It's great.

[00:15:41]Taylor JonesWhamond has given her kind of a, a Modigliani look.

[00:15:46]Rick McKeeI'm really, I really like what he's done with The fabric and the shirt, the folds and the light and the dark and all that sort of stuff. When, you know, Kelce messes up and she decides to break up with him and write about him in a song.

[00:16:00]Rick McKeeThen all, you know, she's gonna it be

[00:16:02]Taylor JonesSong of the year.

[00:16:03]Rick McKeeShe's gonna unleash all hell of her Swifties on the Kansas City Chiefs and, uh, and all of that will

[00:16:10]Jeff Koterbago away. , they're getting married. I'm gonna, I'm gonna go with it. They're getting married. Okay. Well, you know,

[00:16:14]Taylor Jonesthey seem like, I mean, mean for what it's worth, they seem like, uh, they, they, um, he's an, he's an entertaining fellow.

[00:16:21]Taylor JonesUm, you know, Mr. Kelce. And, uh, yeah, and so I don't know, maybe they, maybe they found the perfect match, you know, at least by Hollywood standards.

[00:16:31]Jase GravesI think she's 34, maybe, and I think she may be ready to start thinking kids and marriage and the whole deal.

[00:16:40]Daryl CagleWe do talk about. But, Taylor Swift, like we are old men talking about Taylor Swift.

[00:16:46]Rick McKeeShe needs to be in the kitchen, barefoot, making him a sandwich. I'm just

[00:16:52]Taylor Jonesgonna

[00:16:52]Taylor JonesThink of your audience, Daryl.

[00:16:53]Jase GravesCan you imagine Travis Kelce telling her to go make him a sandwich?

[00:16:57]Daryl CagleSo here's Time's Person of the Year from Bob Englehart.

[00:17:01]Daryl Caglehe writes, guess who? And he draws only her smile. Her smile is distinctive, but this is also one of those, I got away without having to draw caricature cartoons.

[00:17:09]Rick McKeeI think Bob probably had the same issue I have with drawing attractive people. So he said. I'm going to draw a smile.

[00:17:16]Jase GravesBut they all catch the teeth.

[00:17:18]Jase GravesThe teeth

[00:17:18]Jeff KoterbaThat's clever.

[00:17:19]Taylor Jonesgive it away. You can tell it's her smile,

[00:17:21]Daryl CagleHer teeth are distinctive and cute. usually you think teeth should just be not noticeable.

[00:17:27]Jase GravesThe thing about Taylor Swift is that she, she's beautiful, of course, but to me, she's like someone you might know, a really beautiful person you might know.

[00:17:36]Jase GravesShe's not impossibly perfect and she knows that. I watched the Miss Americana documentary on Netflix and she's aware of her imperfections and she's very real. I think that's one thing that draws people to her.

[00:17:50]Rick McKeethis is just a great cartoon right here. I, I love it.

[00:17:52]Daryl CagleThis was from Pat Bagley with, uh Travis Kelce about to pour the Gatorade on, Taylor Swift, who has just won, the person of the year. that's awesome.

[00:18:01]Rick McKeeAnd, you know, it's the, and the thing about it is that a lot that a lot of people don't understand, it's funnier that he didn't draw dumping the Gatorade on her, that he left that for the imagination of the reader. To interpret sort of that kinetic moment when he does that.

[00:18:17]Taylor JonesAre you imagining that right now, Rick?

[00:18:18]Rick McKeeI am. I am.

[00:18:19]Jeff KoterbaI just, I love the drawing of Kelce. I mean, those arms, the legs, the movement. Pat just has this looseness to his drawings. but yet there's so much form there. Just from, you know, great idea. Visually, just wonderful drawing.

[00:18:32]Daryl CagleAnd the love language is cute, too. Because they're both speaking in their own language.

[00:18:36]Daryl Cagleby what they're doing here.

[00:18:37]Jeff KoterbaYou're

[00:18:37]Jeff Koterba100 percent right, Daryl. That's, yep, that's great.

[00:18:40]Daryl CagleHere we have John Darkow again and, Darkow and, Taylor walking away from us with the backs of their heads. And I, I love cartoons that caricature people from the backs of their heads. And, it says, remember Chiefs Nation, Taylor is an Eagles fan.

[00:18:54]Daryl CagleAnd she thinks it's a trap. this one, I guess, is so in the weeds that I don't really get it. Maybe she's an Eagles fan. You know what's going on here?

[00:19:03]Rick McKeeYou know, I'm not a pro football fan, so I thought maybe it was local for. Darkow.

[00:19:09]Daryl CagleDarkow's in Missouri. Yeah, I don't know.

[00:19:11]Jase GravesShe's from Pennsylvania. That's right.

[00:19:13]Taylor JonesYeah, so I get Eagles fan. You know, I thought she was from Tennessee. I think she lives in Tennessee. But she's from Pennsylvania.

[00:19:21]Jase GravesThat's right. The documentary I watched, she indicated that she was from Pennsylvania. But this cartoon, to me, they look a little older than they are.

[00:19:29]Jase GravesThey almost look Middle age in this.

[00:19:31]Taylor JonesI agree.

[00:19:32]Jase GravesLike they're a married couple.

[00:19:35]Rick McKeeMy daughter lives in Nashville now, and I've gone to visit her a couple of times. And it's the funniest thing. This was.a couple of years ago before she's, she was big, but she had not blown up like she has now and I was at the, Country Music Hall of Fame and they have the Taylor Swift Education Center in the Country Music Hall of Fame.

[00:19:53]Rick McKeeAnd I thought, that's awesome.

[00:19:54]Jase GravesThat's like an oxymoron.

[00:19:56]Rick McKeeIt's like the Ben Stiller school for kids who don't read good or whatever that was, I thought. I guess, they learned songwriting in that thing. I guess she teaches. To like underprivileged kids, which is fun and a good thing.

[00:20:06]Jase GravesI really shouldn't joke about education and Taylor Swift because she writes all her stuff.

[00:20:10]Jase GravesShe's a genius as far as her musical abilities and her songwriting abilities. I guess I didn't realize she wrote everything until I watched that documentary, but it's pretty amazing. And she works really hard.

[00:20:23]Jeff KoterbaShe's such a proponent for creativity. and, the creative process and what she has done to fight back against the recording industry, for me, even if I don't listen to all of her music, you know, I'm not going to be playing her music necessarily if I hear it, I like it, I enjoy it, but I'm a Swiftie in the way that she's so outspoken, against the big guys and as cartoonists, as artists, I've certainly had my struggles fighting to keep my rights and publishing rights and so on.

[00:20:51]Jeff KoterbaI really respect and appreciate what she has done speaking out on behalf of creatives.

[00:20:55]Jase GravesI really didn't listen to her music at all until about three years ago. And, you know, my girls were teenagers and they would have friends over in the backyard in the pool and they would be playing music. And, you know, occasionally I would have to go out or I would hear it inside and I would hear this music.

[00:21:10]Jase GravesYou know. I asked my daughter, who is this? And she's like, Oh dad, that's Taylor Swift. And I said, really, this is good. So I got on Spotify and I started listening and I really like most of her songs. And this year, um, at the end of the year, I don't know if any of you are on Spotify, but they come out with sort of your year in review on Spotify and they tell you who you listen to the most.

[00:21:28]Jase GravesAnd Taylor Swift was my number two, uh, artists that I listened to.

[00:21:32]Jeff KoterbaWell, now we want to know who number one was.

[00:21:34]Jase GravesUh, Ben Rector was my number one. I love Ben Rector.

[00:21:38]Daryl CagleSo here we have Joe Heller and it's the new daddy daughter time as Taylor Swift's on at the Chiefs game.

[00:21:44]Daryl CagleDad loves football and daughter loves Taylor Swift, and, they both think, please just don't ask me to explain it to you. . Um, good. I guess this is, uh, this is how, Taylor Swift crosses over into the old men. are, are any of you guys football fans? Oh, yeah, I was a college

[00:22:00]Rick McKeefootball fan

[00:22:03]Taylor JonesI actually detest football. Oh, okay I was a very scrawny kid and when we would like neighborhood pickup they were like touch football games They never treated me as something to touch. I was to be tackled to the ground, you know, by great big kids in the neighborhood. To me, football's been a game that's been kind of a bully's game. But, uh, you know, I'm not saying that Travis Darkow is a

[00:22:22]Jeff Koterbabully. I've always been a Chiefs fan because we're, in Omaha, we're just a couple of hours away from Kansas City, so that has always been our adopted hometown, uh, team.

[00:22:31]Rick McKeeBut speaking of fans, though, I mean, one of the things that I really appreciate about Taylor Swift that, while I don't listen to a lot of her music, I certainly respect her as a person, is how she treats her fans. And, uh, she gives them everything she's got. And, if there's somebody, in trouble at the concert or whatever, I mean, she pretty much stops everything.

[00:22:51]Rick McKeeAnd, she really reaches out literally and figuratively to her fans. I think that's just great the way she, obviously is a nice, kind person who appreciates. The fact that they've put her where she

[00:23:03]Daryl Cagleis. So Jeff, here is one of yours and it's kind of wordy. You want to read it to us?

[00:23:07]Jeff KoterbaYeah.

[00:23:08]Jeff KoterbaIt's a girl saying, what if Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce get married? She runs for president and wins and he becomes first gentleman. And I'm just saying, well. First, nothing would surprise me anymore, uh, which is how I feel about everything in this world. And second, that actually sounds nice. And this is just another example.

[00:23:25]Jeff KoterbaI, again, I draw so many cartoons about really heavy, heavy, dark, awful stuff and I just feel like as a cartoonist. I want to mix it up. I think that readers Like to have it mixed up a little bit You can't just have it serious serious serious all the time And I think that that draws readers in to then maybe pay a little bit more attention to when you do heavy, dark cartoons.

[00:23:48]Jeff KoterbaSo I'm always looking for an opportunity to do something uplifting and positive. And, you know, from this podcast, you might think, well, that's all I do, but that isn't the case. and I also like to just sometimes take a step back where, you know, from just drawing a politician or a newsmaker, take a step back and draw a cartoon about where people live.

[00:24:05]Jeff KoterbaPeople who are doing what people are doing when they're maybe reading a cartoon or hanging out. And so, you know, I just want to take a step back and capture just a little slice of life for just just a moment. Just give people a little breath Before we move on to all the crap.

[00:24:18]Jase GravesI agree, Jeff. I would say two thirds of the fan mail I get for my columns refer to the fact that it's so refreshing to read something that's not.

[00:24:27]Jase GravesPolitics or it's not so dark. It's so refreshing to be able to read something to laugh at or to make me feel good. So I think people do appreciate that.

[00:24:36]Daryl CagleThis one is from Steve Nease in Canada! And you've got the two Swifty daughters swinging their Kansas City Chiefs pennants and Dad says since when are they Kansas City Chiefs fans and mom says since they might catch a glimpse of Taylor Swift

[00:24:51]Rick McKeeyou notice they're wearing a 1989 jerseys All

[00:24:55]Jeff KoterbaYeah, that's great.

[00:24:56]Daryl CagleOh the jersey is great

[00:24:58]Jeff KoterbaWell, yeah, 1989. It's a

[00:25:00]Daryl Caglereference

[00:25:01]Rick McKeeto her album. Her

[00:25:02]Daryl Caglealbum. Oh, I see. Very good. That's clever. That's great. The first one was born in 19 and the second one is Taylor Swift born in 89. Very clever. All right, here is Rivers drawing an old man throwing the dog a bone in the style of the Kansas City Chiefs.

[00:25:20]Daryl CagleAnd it says, to all those folks who might not be a rich and famous power couple like Travis Kelce and Taylor Swift, but act like they are. This is kind of, uh, like a Jerry Von Amerongen In the Neighborhood cartoon, I guess.

[00:25:34]Taylor JonesI love his dog. I love the figure. Although I suppose he could have made it 89 on his jersey.

[00:25:38]Taylor JonesYeah.

[00:25:39]Jeff KoterbaWell, I'm sure Rivers will soon draw a Biden cartoon with 89 on him for his age or something like that.

[00:25:44]Daryl CagleOkay. So here we have another Dave Whamond cartoon and it's the guy at the spaceship with the aliens and the guy says, Are you here to share your secrets and help us solve all the crises facing humankind, like how to survive climate change? The aliens say. No, we're here to ask with all the crises facing humankind, why are you all focused on Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce?

[00:26:08]Jeff KoterbaNice alien voice, Daryl. Yeah,

[00:26:10]Rick McKeeI think this one probably goes back to probably around the time that I did mine, where it seemed like there was a lot of Terrible things going on, and that was, you know, even Saturday Night Live did a skit on it, just sort of a non stop Taylor Swift

[00:26:22]Daryl Caglecoverage. Here we have Adam Zyglas and, Swifty with all of her fans, including the NFL executives who are thinking dollars.

[00:26:30]Rick McKeeThat's great. Good cartoon. Yeah, that's a good Taylor Swift, too. Yep,

[00:26:33]Taylor Jonesit is.

[00:26:33]Jase GravesYeah, there have been several news articles that have talked about how much she's done for the economy in general, with her tour.

[00:26:39]Taylor JonesYeah, I got the thinking that, you know, the next economic downturn, when it finally happens, might be called the, the Taylor recession,

[00:26:46]Jase Gravesyou know?

[00:26:47]Daryl CagleThat's right.

[00:26:47]Daryl CagleThis one is from Gatis Sluka in Latvia, and he's got Zelinsky in Ukraine talking to the room, I guess, full of legislators who are all looking at the iPad and watching Taylor Swift. That's great. Boy, Zelinsky, this is, you know, this is as much about Zelinsky not interesting us so much as it is Taylor interesting us.

[00:27:08]Daryl CagleYeah, both. Great,

[00:27:09]Jeff Koterbagreat cartoon and great use of get us to such a great job with no or few words and his use of color here. You're focused on both screens. Everything else is great out really

[00:27:19]Rick McKeebrilliant. I was going to say that about color and I probably would not have had the restraint to do that. Um, what he did there because I, you know, I tend to like, Oh, everything's got to be in color, you know?

[00:27:29]Rick McKeeSo let me just color every single person in this crowd. Um, Well, Rick, I

[00:27:33]Jeff Koterbahave a question for you as a cartoonist who, like, uh, all of us, we started out, in black and white in newspapers, and when color became available, I know I kind of went nuts with it for a while, and then after a while, I had to, as you said, I had to try to show some restraint because just because I have it available doesn't mean I get to use it all the time,

[00:27:50]Taylor Jonesbut when I, uh, a lot of the work I did for the newspaper in Puerto Rico was under uh, Sort of ridiculous deadline pressure, in part because I had to sort of translate stuff from English to Spanish, etc.

[00:28:01]Taylor JonesBut, they wanted them in color, and I wanted to do them in color, but a lot of them, I only did them in partial color, other than grayscale. And I think some of that just turned out the best. It does have a way of directing you to the points you want to make, you know, visually. Yeah.

[00:28:13]Taylor JonesTaylor,

[00:28:13]Jeff Koterbadid that affect your idea process having to work so quickly on a deadline? Sorry to interrupt, but did, did it, do you find that when you have more time that maybe you kind of wish you had a limited

[00:28:22]Taylor Jonesdeadline? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I get pretty lazy if there's too much time. you know, I'd be sweating bullets if you were trying to meet that really tight deadline, you really feel sort of spent, but also really good.

[00:28:31]Taylor JonesYou know, you'd really, I just sort of, ah, it's wonderful after it was done as well as being exhausted, But at the same time, yeah, if I have enough time, I immediately start procrastinating it almost seems to, I mean, it's laziness, but almost seems it forces me to apply pressure later.

[00:28:44]Taylor JonesHow about yourself?

[00:28:45]Rick McKeeI initially resisted doing color and, uh, I thought it took away from the seriousness of the cartoons. And, you know, all the cartoonists that I admired and respected like McNally and Oliphant. Jim Boardman and Don Wright and all these guys, they didn't use color. They didn't have to have color.

[00:28:58]Rick McKeeAnd they certainly didn't have to have color in their daily deadline. And, you know, later I just embraced it and, you just have to figure out how to get it done.

[00:29:06]Taylor JonesWell, didn't Oliphant, uh, avoided it for, uh, the longest time. And maybe still does.

[00:29:11]Rick McKeeUh, yeah, I don't think he's drawing

[00:29:13]Jeff Koterbaanymore

[00:29:13]Jeff Koterbahe's not. Yeah, he's not right now. Okay. I

[00:29:16]Taylor Jonesmean, but I mean, he's he's he wasn't interested.

[00:29:19]Rick McKeeNo, he never did color.

[00:29:20]Jeff KoterbaWell, he he did colors. You have a you have a Oliphant book in your bookshelf there, Rick and he certainly watercolored the cover of that

[00:29:26]Taylor Jonescovers the cover. He did do the cover. Yeah, that's the end and in fact, if I'm not uh uh well, this is too much professional talk, I suppose, but if I remember, I must have read or listened to some interview with him.

[00:29:37]Taylor JonesAnd he decided, sometime, I think the 1980s to even, you know, like so many cartoonists, then they would use that board that you you brush it and have the gray scale,

[00:29:46]Jeff KoterbaDuoShade

[00:29:46]Taylor Jonesand oh, DuoShade. And he just decided everything's going to be strictly pen and ink. No, nothing like that.

[00:29:51]Taylor JonesWell, it's interesting, Taylor, because I recently, I was in Charlottesville, Virginia for the Democracy 360, conference, and they gave us a special tour behind the scenes of the, Oliphant Collection, which he's donated to the university, and they pulled out several of his, I, I grew up loving his work, huge inspiration, never actually got to see any of his work in person, and he had, they had some of the early DuoShade cartoons, as many of us have used, and all of that DuoShade faded, and then you could see where he just went with, like you just said, black and white, pen and ink.

[00:30:20]Daryl CagleSo Taylor, here you have yourself with Taylor Swift and you're writing, uh, you know, actually we should use your voice for this one, Taylor.

[00:30:29]Taylor JonesYou know, I read the other day that 73 percent of Taylors are morbidly underweight. And then Taylor saying, Suckiest party ever. Or she's texting that to a friend.

[00:30:37]Taylor JonesI

[00:30:39]Daryl Cagledon't remember her being skinny. Oh yeah, she was very slender. She always looked good.

[00:30:43]Taylor JonesWait a minute, wait a minute. Just because she was slender doesn't mean she didn't look good. But the point is, She was slender enough that I could exaggerate that for the sake of the caricature. And

[00:30:54]Rick McKeebecause

[00:30:55]Daryl Cagleshe, she's one of the 27% that is not, or morbidly

[00:30:59]Taylor Jonesunderweight.

[00:30:59]Taylor JonesNo, she's, she, no, she is a, I'm the one who's in trouble, comes to weight. but she used to be an ectomorph. She is now a mesomorph.

[00:31:06]Jase GravesShe did. And she was aware of that. I keep going back to this documentary I watched, but she does talk about how she went through an eating disorder period where she was really worried about the way she looked, her body shape, she wasn't eating.

[00:31:19]Jase GravesAnd then she had this revelation that normal people eat

[00:31:22]Daryl Cagle

[00:31:22]Daryl CagleSo here's Jimmy Margulies and he's got the news on the guy in the news says Putin withdraws from Ukraine before Republicans give up the fight against Obamacare and Iran renounces nuclear program. And the guy watching TV sees Apple bows to stars demand and he says Taylor Swift sure had a busy day. I'm impressed with her standing up to these big behemoth companies and, you know, Apple bowed to her demand to get paid for their, three month free, subscriptions they were giving out.

[00:31:51]Daryl CagleThey did that the next day and they did it for all of the artists. I think that's great.

[00:31:57]Taylor JonesYou know, Daryl, I think that Biden could improve his standing in the polls in economics if he were to name Taylor Swift to his, council of economic advisors and and you know, I mean i'm that's I'm not really being facetious.

[00:32:09]Taylor JonesI think you should make her as running mate. Well, that's, that's even better. Yeah. She's old and she'll be old enough next

[00:32:14]Jase Gravesyear. One of the things that's kept her going is that she is re releasing, all of her previous recordings as Taylor's versions, because she lost, I don't understand all the ins and outs of it, but it.

[00:32:27]Jase GravesThe, the story goes like she lost the rights somehow to her previous recording. So she's

[00:32:32]Jeff Koterbarerecorded the masters, the masters,

[00:32:34]Jase Gravesright. And re releasing the albums as in all the, the kids, my girl's age are eagerly anticipating the next Taylor's version album, which was already released several years ago, because usually

[00:32:47]Daryl Cagleshe's on the news.

[00:32:48]Daryl CagleAnd these songs all sound exactly the same as the originals. and they're selling better than they did when they were out the first time. Yes. Right. Um, and then she's sticking it to that guy Who was, keeping all of her old stuff, and I'm just very impressed with all that.

[00:33:00]Jase GravesAnd she usually throws in a couple of new songs, I believe, on some of those.

[00:33:04]Daryl CagleHere's another Jimmy Margulies cartoon. You've got, Taylor Swift. Getting, a big platinum record from the big machine records who says You've got platinum again. You sold millions on registering to vote. which she did. She really, got her Swifties to go, register to vote. And of course, they were voting, much more in the right way than than the Trumpy Way.

[00:33:27]Daryl CagleAnd I think that's great.

[00:33:29]Jeff KoterbaThat's, a cartoon from what, five years ago I think. Wow. Yep. 2018 it says.

[00:33:33]Taylor JonesYeah. Oh wow.

[00:33:33]Daryl CagleHow about that? She had different hair. Yes, she did.

[00:33:36]Jase Gravesthat was when she was promoting them to go vote against Marsha Blackburn. Is it in Tennessee Senator.

[00:33:42]Daryl CagleInteresting.

[00:33:43]Jase GravesTaylor said she's Trump in a wig.

[00:33:46]Daryl CagleOkay. So here you have the Republican saying, stop being political. And Taylor Swift says, voters gonna vote. that's great.

[00:33:53]Rick McKeeWhich is, you know, play on her song. Haters are going to hate, hate, hate, hate, whatever, whatever

[00:33:57]Taylor Jonesit goes. Well, here's a great, this is a great caricature of Taylor Swift.

[00:34:01]Daryl CagleThis is actually our last cartoon.

[00:34:03]Daryl CagleThis one's by Pat Bagley, and he asks, Why is a celebrity couple making some people lose their tiny minds? And the MAGA far right Christian says, It's the devil! And it's, voting rights number one, two, gay beer, and three, COVID immunization. As she holds up the "Get out the vote" sign, with Travis Kelce, that kind of just puts it all into the same picture.

[00:34:27]Taylor JonesThis is a perfect quick caricature of, of Taylor Swift. it's gotten her, three main things you think about her face, all there very simply. The eyes, the bangs, and the lips.

[00:34:36]Rick McKeeThat's a good Kelce, too. You don't, you don't see a whole lot of

[00:34:39]Taylor Joneshim.

[00:34:39]Jase GravesThey managed to do it without

[00:34:40]Jase Gravesher teeth.

[00:34:41]Taylor JonesYeah.

[00:34:41]Daryl CagleI think we're seeing more Kelce than any other football player right now.

[00:34:44]Taylor JonesYou might have to go back to Joe Namath to have a football player who was in, you know, who would have found his way into editorial cartoons. Uh, I will, I don't know about Brady, maybe Brady.

[00:34:52]Daryl CagleWe see football cartoons as local cartoons. and you don't see them reprinted or in syndication much, of course, because they're about a local team.

[00:35:02]Daryl CagleAdam Ziegler draws Buffalo Bill's cartoons. but they're, you know, they've disappeared largely as, local cartoonists are no longer drawing at newspapers. It used to be the only papers that had cartoonist jobs were the ones that were big urban papers. And those are the places that had football teams.

[00:35:17]Daryl CagleAnd, so there were lots of sports cartoons and then sports cartoons just died along with the rest of the cartooning profession. And,

[00:35:24]Jeff Koterbaironically, I got my start at the Kansas City Star as a sports cartoonist.

[00:35:29]Taylor JonesWow. Well, you know that I'm the oldest one here. And although Daryl, I remember this too.

[00:35:33]Taylor JonesI don't know, but Jeff, maybe this was true when you were working at the Kansas City Star, but, big like whole page sports cartoons were a thing, uh, 50, 60 years ago.

[00:35:43]Daryl CagleI used to live in New York with, uh, Daily News had a big, oh yeah, Bill Gallo in the Daily News, he had a great big, uh page every day.

[00:35:51]Jase GravesI'm still holding out hope that all this will come back. My daughter, my oldest daughter asked for a record player for Christmas. So, you know, if records can come back, maybe newspapers and sporting cartoons and all those wonderful things can come back.

[00:36:05]Taylor JonesI just heard the other day that CDs are coming back.

[00:36:08]Taylor JonesI still have a CD player.

[00:36:09]Daryl CagleOkay, gentlemen, do you have any last words about Taylor Swift? We are at our last cartoon.

[00:36:15]Jase GravesI need tickets to the New Orleans concert in October. So if any donors out there want to throw some my way.

[00:36:21]Jase GravesThis is what Ticketmaster does now. You can't get the tickets, so they put you on a waiting list that is endless and has no hope of ever getting to your name.

[00:36:29]Daryl CagleWell, you know, it is, it's very rare that editorial cartoonists draw favorable cartoons or cartoons about things they like. Because we have a, negative art form. And, so this is probably, a crazy podcast of something that's not very editorial cartoon like for us to like Taylor Swift.

[00:36:48]Taylor JonesYou know, mostly like, if you like stuff, it isn't funny, you know?

[00:36:50]Jase GravesAnd Taylor appears in my latest column. So be sure and read. The one that just came out. It's called Haunted by the Kids of Christmas Past.

[00:36:59]Daryl CagleWell, everybody, thank you for being with us today.

[00:37:03]Daryl Caglethis concludes our CagleCast. Remember to subscribe we appreciate it and, We will see you next time and we will talk about things we don't like. See you later, gentlemen. Fantastic.

[00:37:14]Taylor JonesChristmas, everybody. Same here.

[00:37:16]Jase GravesMerry Christmas guys. Nice to talk.

[00:37:18]Rick McKeeGood to chat.

[00:37:19]Rick McKeeHappy Hanukkah or Kwanzaa or whatever you do.